Granted, there are people in the streets for any number of purposes, whether it’s about Black Lives Matter, socialism, anarchy or boredom. After all, it’s Portland, and the young people of Portland were never sticklers for have reasons to protest. Or burn.
But I posed a question on the twitters, and received the usual responses from people who confused whatever floats through their heads with whatever the questionable reality might be.
Is there an actual goal to the Portland protest/riot that can be met or addressed?
If not, what is the point? How does it end?
— Scott Greenfield (@ScottGreenfield) July 20, 2020
The first question was mostly rhetorical, but there were some interesting ideas about the methodology of the protests/riots, foremost of which is to inflict sufficient destruction to make the bourgeoisie acquiesce to stop the expense they will ultimately bear. The tactic is extortionate, but nobody said extortion was ineffective.
There is no cohesive group running this show. There is no leadership in charge of the protests. There are no demands to be met. Screaming about racial justice doesn’t help, as there’s no “racial justice” button to push that will fix things. Someone argued that abolishing the police would end the protests, but beyond the absurdity of the notion, it’s not as if Mayor Wheeler can just fire the lot of them tomorrow and bring peace to the valley.
Before the apologists of either tribe leap into the fray, bear in mind that the fed reaction and local police inaction come in response to the protests/riots. There are residents in Portland who support the protests, even if they can’t explain why beyond that they hate Trump and are outraged at the feds exceeding their authority. There are other residents who have had more than enough, particularly the business people who, having suffered the degradation of coronavirus, now watch as their places of business are destroyed, their downtown is turned into Nirvana’s wet dream and their livelihoods may be lost.
On the other hand, Trump’s effort at displaying his forceful manliness reinvigorated protests that were waning of their own accord. Not gone, yet, but waning. They’re waning no more as thousands show up with renewed vigor at the outrage.
It’s irrelevant which side you favor. This isn’t a vote, and notably the forces of protest have chosen to take to the street rather than the voting booth, where they wouldn’t prevail because they have nothing to offer. Whether it would be wise to “negotiate” with extortionists is an open question; perhaps if there were viable demands, reasonable solutions that would serve the interests of all citizens of Portlandia, it would present an opportunity to address the protesters. But there is no one to negotiate with, no demands to negotiate over, and nothing remotely resembling reasonable solutions that would serve the interests of the residents of Portland.
It’s now on Day 54 of the Portlandia Bowl, and there’s no idea of what the finale might look like. The question then is whether there is any end to the madness or does it just drag on until the protesters get bored and decide to stay home? How does this end?
*Tuesday Talk rules apply. Please try hard not to be that guy. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
Discover more from Simple Justice
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Magnificent Montague.
“Burn, baby burn!”
“I lack their smiles
and their diamonds
I lack their happiness
and love
I envy them for
all those things
I never got
my fair share of”
…then again, maybe it’s a case of infighting? Tribal warfare…
That’s friggin’ hysterical. Almost Lehrer worthy, but for the omission of a purebred Guernsey cow.
Portland has been protesting since 1857. I daresay most of the city has become numb to the idea of ever getting a good night’s sleep.
It doesn’t end until the community decides it’s had enough. Regardless how long that takes, nothing will be gained because no one has a goal. It’s impossible to negotiate a non-goal. It’s like mediating with a lawyer that has no understanding of the case or the limits of resolution. Done that.
But they’re asking for it by damaging the courthouse. General Services will come to inspect the damage and tend to repairs. I’m told it has its own security force of cops that never get to do stuff, with dogs.
Does anybody really think this is going to end with anything short of the National Guard being called in? Horrifying as that may be, I just can’t see anything else stopping these people. It’s heart-rending that it seems to be coming to this. The mayor and the city council need to be removed from office for dereliction of duty in failing to do anything to attempt to restore order to the city.
Note that I am absolutely not in opposition to peaceful protesting even if it they use bullhorns and get loud (unless they are outside my window when I’m trying to sleep), but the riots and destruction have to be stopped.
Possibly it doesn’t end. I was through Portland in the Summer of 2009, and even then it seemed a mess of crumbling infrastructure, with homeless people sleeping along road rights of way and under bridges. It has to be worse today, with the pandemic and recession. Apparently they have been giving homeless camps a pass for the pandemic, and now have quite a collection. It stands to reason those folks need something to do to keep busy, and it may as well be “protesting.” If you don’t have a job and you don’t have ed a home, what else is there? They’re not just going to sit around reading the NYT.
The fed reaction may be in response to the protests, but I don’t have a lot of patience for law enforcement forces that conceal their identities to avoid later litigation. You do something, own it.
Hey, stupid deflection is my brand. Stay in your own lane.
Agreed. Even if not required by law (Walter Olson[1] at the Bulwark says it isn’t) Feds could and ought to choose to identify officers (even if only by an ID number issued for the operation), they should tell arrestees why they are being arrested and by what authority, and they should give arrestees paperwork with that information on it.
On the other hand, if it’s not required by law, congress could fix that. Has anyone proposed a bill? (While they are at it, they could add audio recording of all interviews, with one copy to the arrestee).
[1] Walter Olson at thebulwark.com: “What We Know, and Don’t Know, About Portland and the DHS”
It’s bad enough that Mel chose to deflect rather than face her tribe’s issues. But Ben, your dive down this rabbit hole is more than I can take. Here’s your comment, because TT rules, and I wish you the best at reddit.
“You do something, you own it.”
What part does not apply to the protesters as well? You destroy property, it’s on you. You assault someone, it’s on you.
And btw, thanks for informing me that LEOs don’t have to identify themselves before they arrest you. I was under the impression that was a requirement. Was somehow under the impression that you could lawfully resist being pulled into a car by masked gunmen. Learn something new every day.
Someone has to be the simpleton, Mel, but you don’t have to do it here. I’ve had enough stupid for a day, Mel.
Sorry. Read too much into Ben’s reply without reading the article he referenced. Comment (and apparent reply) deleted before I could castigate myself publicly.
Here’s an idea: don’t spew stupidity in the first place and then you won’t have to publicly castigate yourself for it afterward. Oh, and much as I like Wally, he’s not a lawyer and his post wasn’t entirely accurate, which is one of (but only one of) the reasons why Ben’s comment was crap. Non-lawyers really need to understand that they have no clue what they’re talking about.
How about not commenting in the future, or do I need to banish you to reddit like Ben?
“What kind of musical is this?! The good guys finally take over and then
everything starts falling apart.”
If they had reasonable demands, their demands might be met, then what would they do?
The proximate reason for the riots may be Defund the Police, but ultimate reason is that the weather is good, and riots are exciting, and their lives are otherwise very boring.
On a marginally less cynical note, people are built for conflict. If they aren’t “fighting for” something, or against something, it just feels wrong. Solving a problem by working, or – worse – thinking, is deeply unsatisfactory. They would rather fight a problem than solve it.
There is an instructive video with a CHAZ participant about what they want, and she is very clear- they want to raze the current society to the ground, first. When that step is complete, they will figure out what to do with the rubble to build a more just society.
Sounds like a plan to me.
From what I saw of Portland, they had pretty much crossed off that first step 11 years ago.
No, not at all. They are far from getting there. ISIS in Syria was getting close, but not Portland.
Sorry, not a plan, but more of a shared vision of the progressive future.
Exactly how do the Portland protests affect the greater US (aside from serving as a basis for Tuesday Talk)? It’s not like Portland is NYC or DC or Britain during the blitz. The only reason anyone has noticed Portland is that our President sent in armed federales and now is equating the protesters with Democrats everywhere. Withdraw the federales and let Portland handle the protests. The business owners knew what Portland was when they opened their doors there, they have access to the ballot box. and can vote out the local politicians who decided how to handle (or not handle) the way these protests proceeded. Beyond that, the situation proves what Brendan Beehan said (and I’m paraphrasing): there is no situation so bad that an armed federal officer can’t make worse.
What does that have to do with anything (and maybe you didn’t care before Trump got involved, but I did)?
I know you like Kathryn, but having noted her recent comments, there’s something seriously off-kilter there.
She’s struggled a bit lately.
The rioters have access to the ballot box too, yet they’re ones destroying property, businesses and livelihoods to get… nobody knows what the hell this violent assholes want. And yet you blame the victims? Are you trying hard to be this absurd or does it come naturally?
“The business owners knew what Portland was when they opened their doors there, they have access to the ballot box.”
For the most part, this is not accurate because most of the businesses in the vicinity of the protests are multinational corporations with no presence or interest in Portland beyond revenue. However, I would agree they have influence.
Do you really think any damaged business owner in Portland got what he deserved by opening a business in a city of anarchy, and that he should have known better? It’s not a good argument, Jake. It’s kinda nuts.
I didn’t make an argument, I pointed out an inconsistency in fact.
You half pointed it out, but you were responding to an assertion which you quoted that “The business owners knew what Portland was when they opened their doors there.”
Sincerely, I was responding to the assertion they have access to the ballot box, which is not true for 90% of the businesses that have been impacted.
“Petrograd spent all evening and night catching and killing its own police. During the nighttime, they would kill them on the streets without even taking them far, or drown them in ice-holes in the Obvdny Canal.”
Alekasandr Solzhenitsyn, The Red Wheel (March 1917), Node III, Book 1, page 572
As possibly the only SJ reader in Portland who has participated in the protests a dozen times over the last two months, I guess it’s my turn to be the expert.
Not speaking for any other individuals, I have heard many shouts and observed many hand-made signs with a fairly consistent message: Stop killing unarmed and innocent people. This is also my reason for participating.
Average people don’t know how that gets done and 90% of the time when they start shouting about how to do it, you are right, they don’t understand the complexities of the issue. But that’s not the point. The point is, enough people in Portland, including city council members, the wall of Moms, middle-aged retired officers in the Navy, the elderly, and yes, a bunch of kids with nothing better to do, are angry and willing to risk their health and safety to protest the way LEOs operate.
To respond directly to the question: How does this end? I have ideas. But again, I am only one protester and not a representative of any organization. Right now we have multivariate problems but the primary one is impacting all residents, businesses, and visitors in a two block region of downtown PDX: Ending the nightly hostilities. If I was Ted Wheeler I would immediately draw down the police and open a very public dialogue with local BLM leadership and the handful of other groups that are organizing the marches and protests.
What does torching the federal courthouse have to do with it?
Who knows? I doubt the average 19 year old anarchist understands the difference between the County Justice Center and the Federal Courthouse which are adjacent buildings facing Londsdale and Chapman Square parks.
Also, the fences you reference being torn down are temporary fences which have lately been erected to keep people out of the parks. Fences are scary to people who know they are going to eat tear gas when they block escape.
I guess symbolic gestures really are a thing after all…
Who would-a- thunk-it?
For that mater what does a federal courthouse in Portland really even represent? A bunch of maritime law cases and a handful of timber lawyers who don’t wear corks while arguing anti-trust cases?
I am confused, maybe I should pose a question on the twitters?
Sorry, Jacobin, but you’re not the only Portland person here. That may be your view, but you are no expert on how others in Portland see this fiasco. No one elected Antifa to seize control of this city, no matter how slim you think you look in black clothing, so fuck off.
Well hello there, neighbor.
“. . . I would immediately draw down the police . . .”
I have been following Portland for 2 years (connections in the area). Could the police being any more drawn down than they already are? Last night, for some reason, they didn’t even show up.
So you’re OK with killing armed innocent people, or guilty people who are unarmed? (Asking for a friend).
Tell your friend to stop being pedantic
This is the sort of pointless yet narcissistic comment that makes people think you’re an asshole, Jake. Don’t do this.
This seems pretty much de rigueur, so little effort trying to address the question and so much effort avoiding doing so. And then there’s Ben, who obviously stumbled in here drunk by mistake.
Ironically, Jake was remarkably on topic for once. Go figure.
The options seem clear enough: either they abandon the city to the protesters and hope they get bored eventually or they will be compelled to use massive police presence and force to shut them down. The protesters aren’t exactly giving the cops (or the rest of Portland, Jake notwithstanding) much choice.
Beyond making life mildly inconvenient in a 2 block area and impacting the revenue of a bunch of multinational corporations, the protesters have no power. Thus, I don’t focus on the choices protesters appear to be giving anyone.
Ted Wheeler has significant power. Thus, it’s his choices, and those of others with power, I choose to focus on. There is no choice on whether to engage a riot so let’s put that aside for a second.
Ted has a choice on how to deal with the 90% of people down there protesting. That is to say, engage in a conversation or tear gas them indiscriminately. On the overwhelming number of nights since this began the choice has been the latter. To my knowledge, beyond one Portland City councilwoman, nobody has tried to engage in a substantive conversation.
Why didn’t anyone tell the Portland business owners whose business were damaged they were multinationals and don’t matter?
Something, something deflection/stay in your lane. You’re cherry picking and triggering on one detail of my comment while ignoring the point completely. Sorry I forgot to Gertrude enough: I don’t support rioting and I don’t riot. Focusing on causes and not effects ≠ endorsing specific tactics of an uncontainable protest movement.
You say one choice is to “engage in a conversation…”
engage in a conversation with who? About what? Who is in charge so that we can have a conversation? Or who is on the protestor committee? There is no one to have a conversation with; there is nobody speaking on behalf of the mob.
As I pointed out, there are groups that are organizing (i.e. scheduling, speaking, supplying) the protests and they’d be a good start.
There’s no “start” to negotiating. Either someone negotiates for all or none. There’s no negotiating with 50 tribes of feral cats.
I think you’re treating this situation like legal proceedings but they are not the same. The goal is to ameliorate conditions on the streets. Could we at least agree that making a good faith show of effort to hear people out is a better choice than unleashing the Trumpmabteilung?
There’s battle lines being drawn
Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong
Can’t speak for Portland anarchists specifically, but as a former anarchist myself, I know there is a lot of wistful mythologizing about the Paris Commune of 1871, TAZ (Temporary Autonomous Zone) as described by anarchist philosopher Hakim Bey, and Christiania in Copenhagen; all characterized as spontaneous, cooperative, emergent communities where government is ad-hoc, individuals are free to do as they please, and no one is oppressed. I’m going to bet that on some level, forming downtown Portland into an anarchist commune is a long-shot goal.
Oh, hey now. Apparently Seattle actually got a little bit of that going with “CHAZ”, or Capital Hill Autonomous Zone. That’s the goal in Portland, if there is any actual goal to be had.
Long live the Temporary Autonomous Zone! May it last for eternity!
Apparently there has been an update in the concept since I was in the game, for the very reason you hint. Hakim Bey said “We’ve had to consider the fact that not all existing autonomous zones are ‘temporary.’ Some are … more-or-less ‘permanent.'”, and thus the concept of the PAZ was born: the Permanent Autonomous Zone.
For awhile, lurking here, it’s been near insufferable reading the illogical blathering of Jake, but now at least there is a correlation that adds some “sense” to it. I am not surprised to now find out he is a Portlander; for inexplicable reasons, a sizeable enough number of Portlanders have gone loopy as to make a TV show premise. I scoff at any sort of “expert” analysis he might claim.
I too, live in Portland; I’ve lived within 12 miles of downtown Portland since 1980 (several moves, but always close), with some short stints actually residing downtown center, or close-in NW and obtained my undergrad from Portland State University. Though I am not an expert on the current situation, I can at least provide my observations, then a conjecture to answer, “how will this end?”
First, the purported protest reason, “Stop killing unarmed and innocent people,” appears lacking factual basis. In a city of 650,000+, the last several years show remarkably low number of officer-involved-shootings (compared portlandcopwatch and official OIS reports and they either matched, or within 1 count):
2019 – 5 (1 of which, no injury)
2018 – 8
2017 – 6
2016 – 2 (1 of which, no injury)
Ideally, I suppose one could argue “one is too many,” but these numbers are very low, and one must also concede that that sometimes “bad guys” employ weapons aimed at people and kumbaya hymns won’t work; ya gotta shoot to save others. Compared to a problem consisting of ~5 per year, the ongoing torching and destruction is disproportionate. The assertion that these, “protests,” involving destruction of businesses and a Federal Courthouse are to further a message to stop indiscriminate killings of multitudes is unsupported both by local Portland facts and by the ultimate victims of the spree.
Also unexplained is how attacking a Federal courthouse addresses or solves their asserted problem.
Also unexplained is how chanting, “muh multinational corporation,” rationally explains and absolves torching and destruction; no matter the recipient it is morally and legally wrong.
Also unexplained is the indisputable fact, from the Portland Business Association, that many businesses being looted and wrecked, are small, local businesses, and don’t match the, “muh multinational corps deserve wrecking!” absolution chant: small retailers, small restaurants, small specialty shops, etc.
For the last couple years, there has been various mayhem downtown that has somewhat been “condoned” in the sense that the Portland Police Dept. were presumably ordered to stand down and observe until perhaps a certain point that was not reached? I can’t say for certain, but that appears to be the case after watching various videos where groups like Antifa were, without permit, commandeering downtown streets and forcing unwitting drivers off the street. In some cases, they were threatening, screaming, and sometimes chasing and beating cars with objects, breaking auto glass; essentially terrorizing anyone that happened to be on the wrong street, at the wrong time and the police could be seen off in the distance, watching but not intervening. I would presume the reluctance to intervene was at the order of Portland’s mayor, because he is also the Police Commissioner.
I bring up that last bit, because that could partly explain why the recent mayhem in Portland has dragged on; the mayor was reticent to engage this type for several years now, so in this case it prolongs. By the time the police engaged, too little, too late?
The only end I see, unless as SG muses they lose interest and organically dwindle, is that the Federal hammer will likely be swapped out for a bigger one, which will eventually quell; there is nothing to negotiate because the premise of the “protest” is mostly incorrect in Portland and there is nobody to actually control the mob’s behavior or negotiate with and despite misgivings, the Feds will undoubtedly prevail if inclined to escalate. It shouldn’t happen that way, but that door was opened by prior administration(s) with application of a convenient “terrorist” label and to my knowledge, has not yet been challenged.
I also highly recommend to my “neighbor” Jake, and his friends, to definitely remain in that 2 blocks you have self-righteously determined is sacrificial, and don’t make a house-call 11 miles to the West; neither of us will be comfortable with the situation and I am fresh out of tear gas.
Hello neighbor. Perhaps one day we can sit down over a delicious plate of Olympia Provisions cured meats, Tillamook Cheese, and toast with a nice glass of Williamette Valley’s finest wine.
I wondered if anyone would bring up last year when antifa seized the streets and the cops let them be. And yet, they still don’t love Ted Wheeler. I wonder how long it will take him to realize that he will never be their hero?
This has been the best Tuesday Talk* in a while.
Cheers & Best Regards,
Dave, from Philadelphia
It had some lows, but some very decent highs as well. And I was on the verge of ending TT after the last few which were pretty lousy. So, it survives for now.
Someone once shared an analogy with me about America in that it’s like a screwboard, and someone lifted up the East end of the thing: all the loose screws slid off and collected at the West end.
Portland isn’t going to get better until Portland decides to stop. They’ve been protesting aggressively for decades, and this whole thing stinks of the Evergreen College fiasco. There’s nobody in charge, but the only way towards peace from the protestors is likely for someone in charge (that’s you, Ted) to sit quietly and listen as they air their grievances, to apologize, and then agree to whatever demands are presented.
They’ve never faced off with the sort of violence that’s looming on the horizon (this may not be martial law on paper but it’s as close as Barr can manage right now), so I can’t say with any degree of confidence whether straight out shooting protestors or rioters will put a stop to it or not, but I do know that to your average hyperbole laden youth, this is the equivalent to a hostile occupation. And the left fringe present in the West, be they antifa, black bloc or just plain old progressive Marxists have been drooling at the idea of a civil war in the country since Darth Cheeto came into power. They’re not alone either as the alt right Naxos and Boogaloo Boys (who have ruined Hawaiian shirts now, damn then to hell) are of the exact same mindset.
My worry with Portland is that it’ll take a Bloody Sunday for this shit to end. My greatest fear is that even that won’t stop things.