As some of you have noted, I’ve largely stayed out of the comments recently. Some think my involvement, from reminding people to use the reply button to keeping comments on topic as they spiral down the rabbit hole, is too mean and harsh. I long ago decided that it was necessary to play SJ janitor lest a few things happen that I, as the guy who runs this hotel, didn’t want to happen.
I didn’t want this place hijacked by partisan crazies of any flavor, which was a frequent issue as a post was seized upon by some interest group and their minions show up by the hundreds to take over the comments.
I didn’t want this place spewing bad legal “advice” of the sort that non-lawyers regularly spew on social media, giving it the imprimatur of legitimacy because this is a law blog, the commenter was pseudonymous and it was impossible for non-lawyer readers to distinguish dangerous horseshit from reasonable discussion and disagreement within the parameters of rational legal discussion.
I didn’t want day-trippers, those very smart young folks who show up for the first time and give their law 101 lectures to all the stupid judges and lawyers here who need to be told what the law is by every rando whose mommy told them their opinions are important.
I didn’t want this hotel to be a place where people felt they couldn’t express a politically incorrect, but reasonably rational, view on social media. It’s made me something of a pariah in the progressive baby lawyer echo chamber, but that’s of no consequence, having made the decision not to pander for popularity long ago.
As some have argued, I can be, or at least seem since some of you can’t imagine why anyone would question your brilliance, somewhat arbitrary in my words. It’s true. There are some of you I find funny when others don’t, and some who think they’re hysterical when I don’t.
There are some of you I simply like or respect more than others, and I cut them greater latitude than I do others. And if I get annoyed enough, I can be capricious as hell. Tough nuggies. You came here of your own accord, so don’t blame me for not loving you as much as you believe you deserve to be loved. It might be worth considering why you came here and neither I nor anyone else reached out to you seeking your thoughts. I just write stuff. I can’t make anyone come here and read it. If they do, that’s their choice. If you do, and feel compelled to leave a comment, that’s on you. Nobody promised you a loving reception.
On the whole, the experiment has gone better than expected. I still trash comments that are just too far off the wall to suffer, but I’ve kept my nose out of the comments in general. Some of you have asked me, even begged me, to come back to the comments and clean up the mess. I open the question to you, dear readers, whether things are doing well enough without me to keep my nose out of the comments or whether I should go back to my mean old ways.
So, should I stay out, come back or something else? Speak now or forever hold your whining about what a mean old man I am.
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I think I know what is behind this posting of yours. My thought when I read some recent posts which I was surprised you let in, I was thinking that you should explain why you allowed a particular the obviously extreme, provocative comments that were uncharacteristic for this blog, you should explain why you did so so the rest of us know what’s going on.
I like the snark. Bring it back.
If you can’t stand having your nose bopped with a rolled up newspaper when you say something stupid, then, to paraphrase Harry Truman, stay the hell out of the comments.
Don’t you think there should be purpose to most things — which requires form, direction, and continual judgment in the swirl of daily events? There are places for free-for-alls. I like the stamp of individuality (even though it rubs me the wrong way at times). It’s a free country — but this doesn’t mean everything should be a free-for-all. I’m not sure SHG is addressing snark, but ideological rambling which, although touching on important matters, is neither stylistically nor intellectually the kind of commentary, or snark, which has been customarily allowed here. P. S. I like free-for-alls too. I know where to go to fin these.
I must be a masochist because I never really minded the “Bop on the nose”, when I commented where I shouldn’t have or said something stupid. That’s how you learn. Besides, I have a thick skin.
Who the hell golfs when the temps are just above freezing? The guys I golf with. 38 degrees at tee off and about 50 when we get to the nineteenth hole.
Sgt Schultz and PK wield the board of education pretty good in your absence.
I recall a Mutt and Jeff cartoon from the Long Island Press years ago (which I can’t find on Google) in which Mrs Mutt explained to her son’s school teacher that the boy, Cicero, was a sensitive child–and to discipline him, all the teacher needed to do is hit the student in the next desk over.
I truly learn from the bops on the nose given to others, but if getting one or two myself is the price of seeing them all, bring it on.
Please. Please come back. We’re all sorry, and we’ll be good. Don’t make us suffer under this situation any longer.
I appreciate your posts, (no tummy rub, just listen) but I also enjoy the comments for each post whether the topic interests me, or doesn’t. You’re right, your comments section differs from the rest of the Internet because it’s fairly well moderated. Or it was.
I look forward to Jake and Jay being the resident left wings, as much as I look forward to your pseudonymous offspring making fun of them. And I’ve taken my licks from the sarge and yourself a time or two and learned from it.
The comments section stands out in its own way and is an important part of this here hotel. I still come to read your thoughts daily, but the tripe that’s been sloughing through is crowding out the sensible discussion and it’s making me sad.
I look at it like a good steak. Your intelligence is the meat, the snark is the rub. They go very well together
SHG, your comments are sometimes more valuable to me than the post itself. I vote for you to stay in by commenting, perhaps moderated some to keep you sane.
All the best.
RGK
I agree with the good Judge. I’ll also add this: I come to Simple Justice to hear what Scott has to say, so I’ll always prefer to read more, whether in actual posts or just in the comment section.
Not that you care, but I stand with the Good Judge’s sentiment, supplemented by Mike G’s:
I must be a masochist because I never really minded the “Bop on the nose”, when I commented where I shouldn’t have or said something stupid. That’s how you learn. Besides, I have a thick skin.
I’m slow, but I can be taught.
Already voted in favor of a return to your active moderation a day or two ago. But, I suspect moderating is both exhausting and only occasionally personally rewarding. Bottom line is you built this hotel so run it however you like.
As a reader, I enjoyed your active moderation of the comments. It was part of what made SJ unique, and it was funny, too. And the way you would type up responses at the same time as you released comments from moderation meant that big dumb threads didn’t blow up before you got involved.
As a (very occasional) commenter I thought it was generous of you to take the time to read my comment and tell me if it was stupid.
For my first comment ever on a post, I vote in favor of your participation. Your moderation usually adds helpful supplemental thoughts, and I have never seen one that seemed egregious.
I prefer the active moderation. SJ isn’t like other blogs. I don’t come here to get my opinion validated, or to get outraged about something, I actually come here to learn things. Your Houseman style tours through the comment section are an integral part of that.
While I’ve been pleasantly surprised by how some of the guests have picked up the slack, I prefer the return of the old ways of moderation.
Since you ask, I’m pro moderation. I was away for a few days last week. When I got home I read through recent posts to see what I missed and was struck by how the comments are getting out of hand.
Heck yes, jump back in, Scott. Your “short take” post was thought-provoking and I looked forward to the comments, only to see them going immediately… off-topic?
The comments on blog posts are usually half the fun. At least on mine. Most folks these days skip my comments section in favor of commenting on the post on Facebook, so I’m always happy to see somebody still goes there. I’ll engage when people want to engage in the comments.
My vote would be for you to do the same. Otherwise, when would we ever talk?
This just seemed too on point not to post.
Of course you should moderate.
Only you can fill the space between the cells.
Thank you
and I finally donated.
So, I’m gonna get in my licks before Skink steals the show with one of his down home stories from the swamp next door to the hotel bar. Someone pointed me to a post on reddit the other day from some little whiner grieving about how mean you were to him. In his story, where he was naturally the hero, you were butthurt because he outsmarted you and cut him off. So I went to take a look at what he was talking about, which was easy enough to find, and saw that his story was complete bullshit. He was a first time commenter who decided he was so important, such a legal genius, that he was entitled to school the rest of us on law. You didn’t smack him for his view, but for his presuming to lecture the rest of us.
Which finally brings me to my point, and I apologize for taking so long to get here:
There is among young narcissistic lawyers an very real belief that they are entitled to use SJ as their soapbox, and they are outraged that you don’t kiss their baby butts for respecting their brilliance. This is one of the few places where someone doesn’t give them a tummy rub for being a pompous self-important asshole.
And Judge, the jerk at reddit also made a point of noting that Scott kisses your ass while he beats up all the kids like him who are so much smarter than Scott (and apparently you, too).
As we’ve discussed, I do what I can to help you keep the hotel clean, as I know what a pain it can be for you and how you really try to let people have their say, even when it’s borderline idiocy. There has to be someplace on the internet where adults can talk without the little shits losing their minds. Thank you for keeping SJ sane, relatively on topic and, whether I agree with you or not, invariably thoughtful.
First, on the ‘not getting the love they think they deserve’ thing…fuck them, that problem/expectation is ALL on them. They haven’t learned the foundational understanding of all human interactions. Do you come to the table with humility and gratitude, or do you show up with you cup full and proceed to slop it all over the other guests?
The part that really makes my brain melt, is how completely opposite and upside-down my experience here has been in comparison to the winers who scream ‘shitlord!’ I came here knowing what I lacked…the old “known unknowns”…and fully aware I deserved nothing, be it ‘love’ or professional respect. And somehow, in the course of dumb comments, spankings, and being forced to study shit i didn’t want to study, i realized i found a true friend. (and friends). I came only seeking knowledge ( and after reading a couple posts told myself, don’t EVER comment here..) and ended up with so much more. Way more.
As to staying out of the comments, all I can say is this..and yes, I’m yelling…
SCOTT, GET THE HELL BACK ON STAGE RIGHT THIS MINUTE!…THIS AIN’T NO DAMN BLUEGRASS BAND…
drummers..I can’t even…
You should go back to commenting more.
This has been a safe haven compared to other sites that make me sorry every time I forget my vow,”Don’t read the comments”. Please resume.
Now that you’ve gotten the tummy rubs you knew you would get when you went fishing, maybe it’s time for a little actual critical thought.
You’re not always wrong, but often too harsh. You might want to look into your anger management issues.
You favor your regulars and tend to be far less generous with first time commenters.
Your are almost invariably critical of anyone with even a mildly progressive view.
You are often sexist and take the few women commenters to task, which could explain why there are so few women commenters.
You are invariably solicitous to Judge Kopf and other judges. Are they special or do you just like that they comment here because it makes you feel more important?
Even when baby lawyers’ comments are shallow, or when non-lawyers ask questions, you choose to ridicule them rather than take a moment to help them understand. Are you so important that you can’t waste your precious time doing something useful?
Should you moderate? That’s your call, as you’ve made clear this is your house and no one else’s. But that doesn’t mean you have to be an angry asshole about it either.
A thought you may want to ponder, your list of grievances notwithstanding. Why do you think Scott carries so much influence? He doesn’t have a TV show. He doesn’t have a NYT column. He doesn’t teach at Harvard Law School. And yet so many people care so much, whether love him or hate him, about what he has to say?
His only platform is this little blawg, the kind anyone could set up in five minutes. As he said, he can’t make anyone read it. Yet they do. So why Scott?
And why not you?
Counterpoint:
If this place is too harsh, avoid Twitter. And most other modern discourse. “Anger management issues” is a concern trolling joke in a world where vitriol is celebrated among allies and complaints are ridiculed as tone-policing.
“Favoring” regulars is a byproduct of having self-selected regulars. He can be “harsh” to them too. We are probably less surprised by it.
“Progressive” should be in quotes. What that word means is unclear these days, especially regarding outcomes. Even if the word were substantive, “invariably” and “mildly” make it obvious hyperbole.
The complaint about treatment of women commentors sounds like someone else’s mail.
Solicitousness is normal among friends and colleagues.
“Help them understand” is the sort of complaint that will get a person hounded out of equity “discussions” on general principle. Maybe that shouldn’t be a general principle, but it’s more defensible in constrained niche contexts, and understanding can be advanced laterally.
As Jules Winnfield said, allow me to retort:
Harshness does not have to come from anger and vice versa. (As the cartoon has it, a “Have a nice day” in LA can be offered with more hostility than a “Fuck you” in New York.)
Favoring regulars? They have accumulated social capital the hard (nose-bopped) way
Invariably critical of the progressive view? It’s more like “critical of the insufficiently-thought-out view.” But if the foo shits…
Taking to task women commenters? Maybe I should argue that you say this because you yourself are a woman…but, Anon, I have no idea how you [or any of the other, mostly pseudonymous, commentators] identify. How do you know this about us?
Invariably solicitous to Judge Kopf? See: capital, social.
And last, ridiculing the vapid is, if not useful, at least highly entertaining
“When non lawyers ask questions.”
I’m pretty sure there’s a button in the side bar you can click for PayPal if you have a legal question you need answered. Nobody works for free.
As Scott has said many times “I can explain it to you, I can’t make you understand it”.
It shouldn’t be surprising that the comments are mostly in favor of the way you did things for most of the history of your blog: they’re written by the people you haven’t driven away. The people you have driven away mostly aren’t seeing this post.
Most of us consider that a feature, not a bug.
Ditto. I see enough crap on Facebook (especially some of the “lawyer only” pages) and I’ve given up on Twitter. Your moderation is definitely a feature, not a bug.
And it’s your house; your rules. If people don’t like the rules, they can start their own blog (or whine on Reddit, which I also generally avoid).
Thanks for your work at keeping this blog actually usable.
Lee
Please, remain driven away.
Please come back.
We just suspected you were in the process of turning the blog over to PK as an inheritance/ burden/ punishment/ marketing tool.
Come back. I’m not a lawyer and often (most of the time?) all this is over my head. But, the comments are lacking with you not moderating them. They lack spice, personality, interest. The room feels empty with you not in it. Trading barbs with some, poking others, Calling out those for their stupidness. This is your house, please be in it.
I am a civil engineer employed directly in civil litigation, so i have more knowledge of law then most fools, but less than many of them. i came here to learn perspective, and SJ was always great at that. I dont comment much, as i am not a lawyer, but my biggest concern lately is that with all the stupid non-lawyer (or at least i hope they arent lawyers) comments, that the comments section might get closed to those of us who are are less stupid non-lawyers.
the downside to staying out of the comments completely, is that your voice is missing in the comments. sometimes, the discussions surrounding a topic are as informative as the original post, but too much off-topic garbage can stray the discussions.
my answer is what it will always be, do whatever keeps you here writing as long as possible, as the loss of SJ will be a blow to people trying to become less stupid.
I have been bopped on the nose. Once or twice, it stung. But modération, Yes.
I say come back. But you don’t have to respond to every comment. Remember: less is more.
I’ve spent most of the 8 years I’ve been visiting this here bar, back in the corner, sipping my water, learning, absorbing what is being discussed and taking a guilty pleasure out of watching the occasional drunken fool who wanders in, learn that this may be a dive bar but not that type of dive bar. I comment rarely and over the years I have only once been banished to Reddit and that was justified because I hadn’t thought through my position enough.
The rules seem fairly simple.
There is no requirement to comment in get in the door.
Keep the crazy to yourself.
Occasionally tip the bartender.
In Remembrance
In New York there’s a bar named SJ
where some people are unwilling to stay
full of opinions to burn
but being unwilling to learn
they decide to just run away
Have to say I miss the moderation as well, even having been bopped a few times. On the other hand if carrying the full load is getting to tiresome I would rather have your thoughts in a main topic than nothing. I have learned a lot hanging out here over the years.
As a suggestion, a possible middle ground might be to find a couple of willing regulars who’s judgement and opinion you trust and value and give them a key to the vestibule and let them share the heaviest load of booting the truly insane and stupid comments so you can focus on handling the ones that really deserve a thought out response.
I’ll see if I can get a pastrami done and off in time for St. Patties, will probably be doing one for here also.
What a remarkable day.
SHG, welcome back.
Mr. Greenfield,
I think my fellow commenters are doing you a bit of a disservice by ignoring your own opinion that this experiment been a success. I will say that much like Judge Kopf, I really appreciated your comments after an article. It was like the good old days of being excited for Director’s Commentary on a DVD…
As far as I’m concerned, this is your establishment and you should run it in the way you prefer. But if you really want my preference: More comments from our host, and maybe a slightly firmer hand on the reins to keep us out of the bigger potholes. But in general I’m still quite enjoying the ride.
Come back, Scott. More you = less stupid.
I’m beginning to see a trend.
I’m a long-time lurker. I’m not a laywer, but I enjoy reading your opinions and I learn a lot from your blog.
I don’t comment because I usually don’t have anything of merit to add, mostly because I’m not a lawyer.
But I’d really like to have a tummy rub. Can I haz tummy rub?
I did not, in honest fact, want to know what Carlyle thought
There are far too many beggars here. I’m with you, Pops, the experiment is going fine and the comments didn’t immediately become a burning tarpit of all the horribles. It happens that I enjoy ripping apart what people say or mocking what they say and I’ve been around long enough to know the common traps we all can fall into. You don’t always find me funny and illuminating, which is fair, but I don’t take your warnings or replies in a mean spirit. It’s your bar and if I’m acting out I expect a rebuke, but sharing isn’t exactly acting out. I’m not sure what the answer is. You didn’t scare me off, so I’m not sure I’m the one to say whether you should come back.
This was difficult to answer because I’m relatively ambivalent so I had to stream of consciousness a whole paragraph out. I’m so sorry. My final answer is do whatever makes you the happiest and will keep you writing the posts.
I agree that with the new approach there are some poorer quality comments coming in. Then you have some commenters coming off the top rope at them, trying to fill your role and not doing it as well. It was better before. So this is a vote for a return to the old way/more Socratic environment.
When I first came across this quaint hotel, I would have left a comment about my thoughts on your moderation — in response to your question. Instead, I took a day to think about it.
I don’t have the thick skin of others – and when you blasted me, I took it far more personally than you would ever have intended. But, it took a while to fully appreciate why you did it. You write for yourself and you allow comments not for us, but for the discussion.
Therefore, it’s the discussion that is harmed when people utter meaningless drivel (myself included).
TL;DR It’s not the what, it’s the why.
And when comments lack enough “why” to merit responses, but responses come anyway, it creates a negative feedback loop that makes thought-provoking people (and even me) less likely to offer something of substance.
So, yes, I agree with those that wish you to continue moderation – but not for myself, but because it makes participation in the conversation more worthwhile. And that seems to be the point of a comments section for posts about thoughts.
Im just here for your tummy rubs….and the snark. Oh the snark…its glorious. Yeah, you need to rejoin the commenters.
Like I said the other day, I value and appreciate your comments, even (especially) when you disagree with me. Also, if you come back, maybe PK will cut out his yapping, ankle-biting attempts to fill your shoes.
The references to me here are annoying. I’m just a commenter. I’m not trying to take anyone’s place or do anything special. I stuck around long enough and learned something and am more than happy to extend a helping hand to someone else who might otherwise get scared away even if I’m also one that apparently does some scaring too. I’m not a bouncer, moderator, or anything but a weirdo “regular” who refuses to let go that the Host called me a pseudonymous kid on the internet one time, years ago.
You know how to reply to me directly and instead you run to Pops to tell him I’ve been being naughty? Not cool PGP, not cool at all. I try to be selective in my deconstructions and generally nicer than I have been in the past and am happy with my efforts in general. If I’ve bothered you or anyone else, great.
With all that said, I’m flattered by any comparison with the Host. I come here and read his stuff everyday for a reason which isn’t to tell him how great he his. If I even come close, I’d be happy with that.
https://imgflip.com/i/18xbcp
Yeah, I know the rules.
Still.
IANAL, but I taught grad school for a long time. 1) I agree with LocoYokel. Add a couple of trusted Mods to keep order. 2) come back to comment and bop on the nose. Snark is part of the fun.
I found the line between “spirited debate” and “damn free-for-all” the hardest part to handle in grad seminar. Especially when some “bright” newcomer decided he/she was there to educamate the locals. I want more spirited discussion with as little free-for-all as possible.
Your place, your rules.
I enjoy reading your entries as much for seeing your thoughts unfold as for the topics, (No tummy rub) I get a well-thought-out but usually different view of the legal world that works for me. Both you and the commenters.
P.S. My students thought I was just a mean old bastard quite a lot. Who cares if it works.
Please come back.
“Therefore, it’s the discussion that is harmed when people utter meaningless drivel (myself included).”
Amen. But Scott is people too.
Not all who commented care to realize, as Scott to his credit certainly does, that at times his engagement with the audience has been abusive toward some, and this harms the discussion. He voluntarily backed off for a time, and most of us recognized the difference in tone. He asks is this worth continuing? Like any good lawyer, I’d say “it depends.”
The view that this is “his” blog runs the entire spectrum from vacuous to fatuous, and Scott did not even hint at a justification that barren. No, whether Scott does return to the status quo ante, in whole or part, certainly is a call entrusted to his conscience. He has earned that.
For the most part, and notwithstanding the inside baseball aspect of much of the commentary, I have welcomed Scott’s views, even when they illuminated my drivel. I have stayed notwithstanding the abuse he directed toward a perhaps under-deserving cohort, and just keep my keyboard in exile when I visit the bar, for there is no need to comment if I want to learn. Regardless of my distaste for the varying levels of putative justice he metes out to some of us, I have a tremendous respect for his candor and erudition and thoughtfulness, and when he falls short it has been lamentable. Bully? I believe Scott is better than that, and I submit he does too. I bow to his choice to confront this..
So, I’ll opine that maybe it would be best if – for a while – he applies to his contributions the same degree of restraint that he expects from us, and permits his comments the same sort of condonation that he accords us. All of us. See how that works. When Bad Scott pops up quite frankly it diminishes the weight to be accorded those many comments that keep us coming back. That is a loss to us all.
Wow, you must have aced psych 101. If this doesn’t manipulate Bad Scott to become kinder and gentler Scott because he dearly seeks to be “better than that,” nothing will.
(Almost) every time I post here, I get my nose bopped for it. The way it gets bopped is sometimes instructive. But that’s all about me.
I don’t know if there is a difference, for you, between “Stay Away” and “Come back and Moderate”, but I would prefer the option that makes you happier, on the theory that it keeps SJ active longer.
Let me rise to disagree with every commentator. In fact, our host has been so good to us does he not deserve a break? A break from posting and a break from social media? A break from moderating our comments! Are we not the demanding and selfish ones?
Surely, he will be back. But he is just a man, an individual man.
In the past, I spoke frequently, and undoubtedly made a hairy nuisance of myself. You slapped me down, and likely not often enough, but I have no objections. I see no reason that anyone should expect to be entitled to more than that.
And I still appreciate it, too.