From J-dog, it appears that getting cheap stuff at Target involves a hidden price that some may prefer not to pay. After the fiasco that followed Target’s spreading the word that their well-trained employees are unfamiliar with United States currency, such that they defame their customers for fun and profit, we now learn that Target’s sales-geniuses presume to psycho-analyze their customers when they expect a refund.
From Xavier Thoughts :
How does a perfectly sane 79 year old lady go against her will from the local Target to the emergency room for a mental evaluation? Try returning two shirts that did not fit and expecting the money you paid in return rather than a gift card.
Crazy? Yes, in the eyes of “Mr. Nasty,” the manager of the Super Target in Plymouth Minnesota, that constitutes the need for a mental evaluation.
Well, let’s slow this down a moment. It’s not like the Target manager has that much pull, even in Plymouth, Minnesota, right?
The manager threatened to call the police. Mrs. Brown called them instead. The officers of the law did a cursory interview, and had the elderly lady strapped to a stretcher for ambulance transport to the local ER. The medical staff there did their evaluation, saw no reason to keep her, and released her the same day.
What? The police behaving like the private arm of a business? Could something like this really happen?
As previously discussed, the police have a duty to protect; They just protect businesses better then they protect people. The last time we went around the horn with this problem, some of my knee-jerkier commenters sought to rationalize why the customer is never right. Will you be able to do as well with our 79 year old Christine Brown, who’s crime was expecting her refund?
Not only did Mrs. Brown have her receipt, she also had the bank’s record of the electronic transfer of funds to Target from her checking account. She was not unruly. She simply informed Mr. nasty she would stay at the store all day if necessary to get her cash refund. He told her she was trespassing. “I’m not trespassing. I’m a customer,” she said. “Give me my money and I’ll go.”
There you go, the John Dillinger of the geriatrics. And before anybody starts mouse-milking the issue of whether she should have gotten a cash refund or gift card, or whether a paid-up customer exercising an undisputed right to return merchandise should be entitled to challenge the refusal of a merchant to refund her money, consider where her conduct got her: To the loony bin?
The clarity of this situation tends to make the point as clearly as possible: Mrs. Brown paid money for her merchandise and Target offered her a gift card in return. It’s not the same thing. Mrs. Brown disputed the refund by gift card, and was told by the almighty manager, “Sorry, lady, but that’s what your getting.” Mrs. Brown stood her ground. Enter cops. Mrs. Brown gets strapped to a gurney and taken for a psych eval. It just doesn’t get much worse.
So let’s try this again. Cops favor businesses over people. Cops confuse their duty by becoming embroiled in, and taking the side of business in, wholly civil disputes. And Target is quite obviously a risky place to do business. They never show anyone getting busted on their commercials.
I have to wonder what the officers’ mothers had to say about their brave efforts toward Mrs. Brown.
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Having run my own hair salon in a mall and my own barber shop for almost 20 years,my policy was never give back cash.The amount of people trying to return perfectly good products or get a refund on services weeks later is larger than you would think.Plus,once you have a reputation for refunding cash it gets around and causes more bad faith claims.Credits are standard practice.I have had some people baned from the mall for abusing my employees over this policy.If a product had a defect I would make a exchange[unlikely in hair care],if a service had a flaw I would make it right but no cash.People returning cloths are a nightmare.They would never do this with a car,or food,yet if something doesn’t ‘fit right’ or the decide they don’t like it they think they should receive cash.There are many times I have refused to give even a credit.Working with the public is hard at times and in a small business having a rep for giving out cash is a bad way to operate.This women should have taken the credit and left.
If you have a sign on the wall stating “No Cash Refunds,” then you are entitled to refuse to give cash refunds. If not, then you are stealing from your customers. There isn’t one set of laws for shopkeepings to accomodate whatever makes them happy as apart from the rest of society. And it doesn’t matter why you think it’s reasonable. You have the right to set the terms of the contract, provided it’s clear in advance, when you do business. You do not have the right to change the contract afterward. Neither does anyone else.
In West Virgina you do not need a sign although I have one.Besides,try getting a refund from a doctor or a attorney,how many have you given over the years?Do you really believe you’ll get one from a car dealer on demand?If there is nothing defective with the product you have no reason to refund.You can’t refund for every one who changes their mind.
West Virginia? I didn’t know they had barbers in West Virginia. Not being a WV lawyer, I don’t know if your statement that signs aren’t needed is accurate. But if so, it’s absurd.
Michael, there’s a difference between good and services. It’s rather hard to return a haircut, though some may complain that they don’t like one very much. That said, in New York, a lawyer is required to refund any unused portion of a legal fee. And should a client decide to discharge a lawyer, even without cause, that’s exactly what the lawyer does.
Yes, you can refund for everyone who changes their mind.
You said unused I see.What if they just didn’t like your service and wanted all their money back.I’ve faced that many times because of the number of employees I have had.Christmas season is when most of this occurs.I’ve had people who received a 50 gift certificate and tried to by a .50 cent comb and wanted the cash.You wouldn’t believe the amount of people that buy a outfit for a party and return it afterwards.I’ve had moms want a refund because their 16 year old son got a hair cut they didn’t like.I just don’t trust the public as a whole.By the way,WV has some very out dated laws,the barber code has not been updated since 1936.It still requires a spitoon in a shop.The rental laws are even worse.Before you ask,my gift cetificates clearly state for goods and service only.
Try again, this time considering the difference between good and services. And if someone tenders a gift card for payment, then they haven’t paid cash. The details matter, and you can’t argue one point by backing it up with different set of facts.
This is a lawyer blawg, not a barber blawg. Accuracy counts.
Sure. But even giving the manager the benefit of the doubt on all of it, it’s still bizarre.
Not give a cash refund for a kinda-cash payment? I don’t know whether an electronic check transfer counts as a cash payment, but, hey, that’s a legal issue. If they’ve violated a contract, that’s what small claims court is for; if they’ve dissatisfied a customer, that’s what bad word of mouth is for.
Order somebody off the property? Again, fine; their place, their rules, as long as they’re not violating the law in their reason or means.
Give a trespass notice? That’s extreme, but, hey, see above.
We’ve got the best way to handle it (getting everybody to chill), the worst way to handle it (arresting a 79-year old, one-eyed, crippled little old lady for trespass), so . . .
. . . they pick the extra worst way to handle it.
There you go again, trivializing the victim’s suffering. Mrs. Brown wasn’t just arrested and removed from the property, but taken to the hospital for a psych eval.
On the other hand, perhaps that would make more sense if one thinks that shopping at Target is nuts.
Sorry; I was unclear. I know that she was hauled off for a psych evaluation; that’s why I said extra worst.
I’m not sure that it’s worse to spend time in a nice, clean psych ward than a lockup, mind you; I’ve visited people, a very few times, in both. But it — IMHO, and all — is worse for cops to do something that’s clearly illegal and wrong — a bogus psych word hauling off — than a lawful, if ugly, unreasonable, and unnecessary arrest.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the calculation. We can take this crippled, one-eyed little old lady off to County, where she’ll be in the lockup until she can see a judge, or off to the hospital.
It’d even be possible to rationalize it further.
If we don’t haul her off somehow or other, the manager will do a citizens arrest, and then we have to take her to jail.
I’m trying to figure this out; not justify it — I don’t think it’s justifiable. I’m with Heinlein on this one — to understand all is not to forgive all.
First, since they’re Minnesota cops, aren’t they supposed to speak with a Swedish accept? Second, why not just walk her out the door and cut her loose? They have discretion beyond whom to taze.
First: you betcha; heckuva deal, although Norski is more common. (Pinky swear: my first Hebrew lessons were recorded, and I had a Norski accent.) More seriously, folks in flyover land are often a bit more diverse than our coastal cocountrymen sometimes think; the Plymouth PD’s chief, who grew up there, is named Goldstein.
Second: I think they should have done that, on the ground of “What’s to lose?” if nothing else — although I think they should have gotten her wheelchair out of the car for her first — but while I’m not an expert in police procedures (if I was, I’d give you a great explanation as to why Plymouth, with 70,000 people and a rep as a nice place to live, needs a SWAT team, and no, I’m not making that up), I am pretty familiar with stubborn elderly Minnesotans: she would almost certainly just have rolled back in. Lutefisk (if you don’t know, you don’t want to know) makes people stubborn.
Scott, I suspect you are familiar with David Maister; Michael, if you don’t recognize the name, David is a business author and professional services consultant. Last I checked, David billed law firms around $20,000 / day to come in and yell at their senior managers, and for his consulting services, he offers a 100% guarantee :
The ValoremLaw Firm offers a similar guarantee as well.
She’s lucky they didn’t taze her for the fun of it! Those sadistic people should all be fired! Going to a mall or one of those type stores is just asking for trouble. Shop online in the safety of your home is the best way to go!