My op-ed on the Great Neck North SAT cheating scandal appears at Newsday, with access behind the dreaded paywall.
The TL;dr version: Yes, cheating by having a ringer take the SAT’s is a verybad thing, no matter how bad the pressure to achieve. Life is full of pressures. Dishonesty isn’t the answer. Anything sound familiar yet?
But no, prosecution, nor the potential for a jail sentence, isn’t the answer. That there needs to be significant consequences is clear, but we still have to be guided by proportionality. Most importantly, these are teens, children, and despite our anger at what they’ve done, we do not impose needlessly harsh punishment on children that will have a permanent and devastating impact on their lives.
Greenfield: Jail not right for SAT cheating
Hopefully, we can demonstrate our ability to be the adults in addressing this problem, to send not merely a message, but the right message, to our children.
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The first two comments to your op-ed scare the hell out of me. I guess I probably shouldn’t be surprised, though.
Your column today was thoughtful, but I must disagree in part with you. True, do not jail the offenders, thats the overkill. But unfortunately for the sake of equal “justice for all”, if found guilty, the defendants most certainly would need their crimes documented and recorded. Yes, they’ll have a record but so do countless other youths who have made a bad illegal decision and was caught at it.
Why should the privileged have their crimes hidden while the masses must suffer the full consequences? I wonder…if you don’t mind me asking, do you know any of the accused or their families? Curious Chaz
Can anyone recall a time when Kathleen Rice, the DA prosecuting these kids, was heard from in the press for exercising some sort of measured judgment, moderation, adult perspective, etc., or is it simply a record of phony outrage and hysteria at every turn?
As an aside, how was the phony test-taker supposed to take the test for six kids at the same time?
DA Rice would probably prosecute a rotten ham sandwich if she thought she could get away with it.
In this case I believe she’s doing the right thing and as we all well know, a plea agreement would probably be some probation time.
No, I don’t live in GN or know anyone involved with the case. The difference in this matter is that academic integrity doesn’t fall within wrongs ordinarily considered crimes. While it’s not hard to find a crime to wedge it into, there is no section of the penal law for “cheating on the SATs” or trying to fraudulently get into school. It’s a significant distinction between these kids and others who have committed crimes.
This is not to say I favor treating children like adults for any but the most serious crimes, and then only older teens, not younger children. Rather than prosecute these kids as criminals, the better idea is to try to avoid prosecuting children, and address their misconduct in a more useful manner; consequences, but not permanent taint.
It appears that the Chief Judge of the New York Court of Appeals, by the way, agrees with me.
Why was arrignment for these defendants closed to the public and press?
I’m guessing it was closed due to the law in New York that disallows releasing the identity of the defendants under 19 years of age. I do not know but based on what I’ve read that seems logical. But I totally agree with Scott G. that giving these teens a criminal conviction, probation or otherwise is not the best way to resolve the matter… this is a parenting issue, an academic issue, and/or an ethics issue… it is NOT about the criminal justice system.
While I appreciate your agreement (but please, never, ever, call me Scott G.), there is no law in NY that “disallows releasing the identity of the defendants under 19 years of age.”
As you and I know, there is no lawful way to keep this arraignment private. Which, of course, begs the question.
I guess its normal to want to see everythig through rose colored glasses. Prosecute them, don’t prosecute them…slap their wrists, jail them, what an array of opinions. I can only focus on the state of the world today, and the many reasons why we are where we are, which in’t good. This much is true, and I’m sure not only in my own humble opinion. The question we should beg is:
Would you want a future politician who begins a career as a cheat? Or a doctor who only wants people to think he/she is brilliant instead of a liar or cheater who was never really able to make the grade? How about the president of our country?
(We’ve had enough of cheaters, liars and scammers)
What kind of world do we leave our children when cheating and stealing someone elses chance for admission to a college through those scams and lies?
No, its wrong. they should be exposed and punished,certainly not jailed but at the very least to ensure that justice prevailed by example.
The choices aren’t limited to prosecution or nothing, a false dichotomy, nor does prosecution in this instance (meaning SAT cheating, as opposed to the multitude of other ways to cheat) assure you that your politicians or doctors never cheated. Your argument fails to hold any logical water.
You wrote: “Your argument fails to hold any logical water.”
That it may, but….A cheat is a liar….is a cheat…is a liar. There is absolutly nothing wrong with “Character Correction” especially at such a young age. You can float a building on that argument.
Yes, a cheat is a liar. So every child who lies should be criminally prosecuted? Every person who lies should be criminally prosecuted?
Yes Mom, I finished all my homework.
No dear, that dress doesn’t make your butt look fat.
A very scary argument. If lying compelled prosecution, would you be without a criminal record, Chaz?
Cheating on an SAT could not be considered a little white lie.
“No mommy, i didn’t rape that little girl next door”
is not the same as “Yes mom I finished all my homework. As a lawyer, you know that don’t you?
Or “No mommy,I did’t pwn your wedding ring to buy drugs”
Rape is a crime, Chaz. Lying, of itself, isn’t. If someone lied about a rape, do you think they would prosecute that person for the lie or the rape? I can give you the answer, as it happens fairly often.
I know lots of things as a lawyer, like the difficulty of getting into some inexplicable, vague value judgment like SAT being the line because it feels right to you. What about an AP test? Or a Regents exam? Or a Final? Or a midterm, regular test or quiz? Not as big as the SAT, but enough to win valedictorian. Same or different? As a lawyer, I’m constrained to think rationally.
The law isn’t about vague, fuzzy feelings of people. The law is about drawing a clear, rational line between what is criminal and what is not, and why. Since you’re not a lawyer, you aren’t expected to realize that your “feelings” don’t serve as a basis for criminality. But then, the irrational ire of the masses is enough to push a prosecutor to appease the mindless anger of crowd. The irrational anger of the mob is a very grave danger.
So you “feel” that SAT cheating is a very bad thing. No one says otherwise, but that’s not the question. The question is whether these kids should be prosecuted criminally for it. You’ve offered no basis to suggest they should, though I suspect some mindless politician will propose a new criminal law, Academic Cheating in the First Degree, to get the vote of the angry mob, and you, Chaz.
Back to the cheating issue.
Prediction with track record of 90%:
No matter what side of this issue you’re in what will happen is this.
Nassau DA Rice’s quest to prosecute will lead to misdemeanor charges (exact wording to be settled upon at a later date)
Through much attorney/DA negotiating perhaps for about a year, this case will end up with probation for all those involved and records for the defendants as it should be. Looking towards a better world with “Justice For All.”
I assume your reference to “as it should be” related to probation rather than incarceration, meaning that you’re point is that you are against jail time for the students? Aside from that, the rest is pretty obvious.
You seem like a good, well-intended person, though you seem not to notice that this is a law blog populated by lawyers who practice criminal law and who daily do the things you write about from a distance, a question: If you realized that you have engaged in a crime by your use of my blawg in violation of the law by your failure to use your true, complete name, thus engaging in wire fraud and miscellaneous violations of the CFAA, would you surrender to federal agents, plead guilty willingly and live the rest of your life with a conviction, provided you didn’t go to jail and only received probation?
Well…first of all, had you carefully read what I’ve been saying from the beginning, I agreed with you that there should be no jail time. I disagreed wih you that they should not be prosecuted.
To answer the second part of your reply, I violated no law by answering or participating on your blog unless your referring to a hypothetical law. That said, I can use whatever screen name I choose, which in my mind may protect me somewhat from many of the the insane, disturbed people who populate todays Internet. If by chance I could be prosecuted for the words I write or the name I use, then so be it. I absolutely would plead guilty, accept probation and even jail time for my beliefs.
I did not offer up my life for my country as a veteran to leave behind a world as it is today and what it’s morphing into. Lawless, untethered and no consequences for questionable, unacceptable behavior. Besides, if as you say, that this blog is populated by lawyers that practice criminal law then I may not belong here but again, one thing is true and I know you’ve already heard the expression before….”We’re all part of the same hypocracy”.
Yes, I understood where we agreed and disagreed. I was clarifying your writing in the last comment. Clarity of thought and words matter, and I would hate to misunderstand you.
Second, you think you violated no law? Based on what? Read Three Felonies a Day by Harvey Silverglate before you make such an assumption. The law is what it is, not what people think it is or think it should be. Lawyers know this because we’re there dealing with the people who, like you, didn’t know there was a law or that they violated it. There are about 4000 federal criminal laws. Were you aware of that?
That said, I am not seriously suggesting you’ve committed any crime, but measuring your willingness to live the life you would impose on others. You say you would. Perhaps so, though at the same time, you’re rather adamant that you’ve done nothing wrong. In fact, you haven’t.
The upshot is that you’ve at least hypothetically agreed that you would suffer the same indignity that you would have the six students suffer. That said, at least your opinion, normative as it may be, is free from hypocracy. For that, I may still disagree, but respect your position.
…..and I respect yours, SHG. Thats what its all about.
Great topic, and I learned a few things.
CP