As a young student, I was taught that a comma goes inside of the quotation mark when the quote consists of more than a single word. When the quote is a single word, however, the comma (or period, or question mark, as the case may be) goes outside. I’ve used this method of punctuation in my writing since.
My editor, Marilou, disagrees. Vehemently. She tells me that the punctuation mark goes inside the quotation marks in every instance, single word or more. In post after post, she informs me that I’m wrong. I ignore her. She persists. I ignore her some more. She’s a very tolerant yet persistent person.
Last night, Marilou wrote to me:
for the love of all things holy, put the comma inside the quotation mark
Religion, Marilou? Now it’s a matter of offending God?
Realizing the depth of Marilou’s beliefs on the issue, I’m prepared to put my position to the test. Don’t expect me to have an epiphany, but I am open to persuasion. If either Strunk or White happens to be reading this post (which would be quite a shock for many reasons), they automatically win. Anyone else, please explain your rationale.
So I humbly ask for thoughts: Does the comma go inside or outside the quotation mark when the quote is a single word?
Update: I hear you and concede the error of my ways. Hereinafter, I will punctuate as Marilou demands, and my prior puncutation, with commas or period outside the quatation marks for single word quotes should be deemed to be within the quotation mark, nunc pro tunc.
Thank you all for straightening me out and ending my mistaken, stubborn refusal to heed the wisdom of Marilou.
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IIRC, the book Eats, Shoots & Leaves says this is more of an English / American divide, with the former placing the comma (or period) outside of the quotes and the latter placing it inside.
I don’t see why the length of the quote (i.e., one word vs. more) makes any difference. It should be uniform.
I put all commas inside, every time, since that’s the more common formal usage in America. AFAIK, so does the Supreme Court, and so do all of the Circuit Courts. I’ve never seen them do it otherwise.
The letterpress era is over. Let’s go back to placing them outside the quotation marks.
I’m with Marilou. On law review we had it drummed into us that it always goes inside the quote marks. I have never ever heard of a one word exception, and I agree with Max that it makes no sense. I also recently researched the issue at some grammar sites when I was checking the rule for question marks and quotation marks. Again,never saw an exception for one word.
I agree about circuit courts. I placed commas and periods like Scott until I started writing appeals. I didn’t want to trigger some judge’s pet peeve. It’s hard enough to win criminal appeals.
That would be more logical, since the comma/period denotes the end of a clause or sentence. Nonetheless, I find that to be visually arresting, though maybe that’s purely because of unfamiliarity.
Whatever the merits of either, the more common usage is inside, so we’re stuck doing it, like it or not.
Fork on the left, spoon and knife on the right. Do or die.
Although I haven’t bothered actually to investigate the matter, I think I’m older than Scott. I was taught by strict and well-educated grammarians and punctuarians that in the US of A commas always go inside quotation marks. I was also taught always to use the final serial comma, never to split an infinitive, and not to begin a sentence with “and” or “but.” I obey all but the last of those rules. Except, as Bennett might say, when I don’t.
I’m tending to put the comma outside the ending quotation marks on the logic that putting it inside the quotation mark is actually a tinkering with the quote–i. e., the quotation mark is not a part of the quote, and I do not want to misquote. (I’m very scrupulous about some things.)
But sometimes I don’t. In nearly every case however, I am putting the ending period of a paragraph outside the quotation marks. When the paragraph is done, it’s done. I don’t want any quotation marks hanging there like draperies flapping in the wind.
What’s “bleg”? I’m looking for a definition of “bleg.” The word “bleg,” if spelled correctly here, is not found at dictionary.com.
Cute trick, trying to insinuate your nasty ways into these comments. I’m on to your tricks. Stop trying to influence people.
Like you, I’m open to persuasion. I don’t require the input of Mr. Strunk or Mr. White, just some credible evidence. I wish I could find my little Harbrace College Handbook from my student days.
This isn’t a competition; it’s a matter of wanting your blog to be the best it can be.
Oh sure, now try to sweet talk people by being Ms. Eminently Reasonable. Will you stop at nothing to prevail, woman?
“Well,” I thought, “I’ve never heard of this single-word ‘exception’, but I put commas, periods, question marks and exclamation points outside ‘doubt quotes’.”
Strunk & White, Third Edition: “Typographical usage dictates that the comma be inside the marks, though logically it often seems not to belong there.”
Quotation marks are nothing like draperies. But an errant period, outside the quotation marks, is like your puppy escaping out the front door.
OK – but this doesn’t resolve the issue. Strunk and White note the practice of typographers–who are the ones printing a piece of written work or making it ready for printing. In this quote, they make no reference to grammar or logic as deciding the issue or offering guidance. It is grammar and logic writers are concerned with–not typographical practices, though these have won out. Nonetheless, you’ll see in some printed writing this custom is breaking down–and some typographers (probably mainly bloggers posting their own material) are starting to put the comma outside the quotation marks!
ok, so manipulation aside, what’s “bleg”? I still need a definition of “bleg.”
No.
The period outside the quotation marks at the end of a paragraph is not “errant”; it is decisive. It decisively brings the paragraph to an end in a way which quotation marks cannot hope to do. And this practice of mine–when universally adopted, even by the likes of you–will resolve at least one aspect of this burning, divisive issue.
Fowler’s Modern English Usage, Second Edition:
“Questions of order between inverted commas and stops are much debated and a writer’s personal preference often conflicts with the style rules of editors and publishers. There are two schools of thought, which might be called the conventional and the logical. The conventional prefers to put stops within the inverted commas, if it can be done without ambiguity, on the ground that this has a more pleasing appearance. The logical punctuates according to sense, and puts them outside except when they actually form part of the quotation.”
(Fowler would call the first two commas in my previous comment “clearly otiose.”)
“In the treatment of question and exclamation marks the systems tend to merge, perhaps because those symbols show up so glaringly the illogicality of the conventional one.”
“The conventional system flouts common sense, and it is not easy for the plain man to see what merit it is supposed to have to outweigh that defect. . .”
We are blessed with not having an academy to review our work; all English grammar is descriptive. Those of us who edit and publish our own work are free to follow the logical rather than the conventional rule.
Those of us who use editors, however, probably ought to listen to them.
I hope this settles it for you. As Marilou points out, your punctuation is unholy and as Max points out, it is un-American. Also, it don’t look right.
Bearing in mind Bennett’s Law of Rules, that is, we are free to follow the logical rather than the conventional rule.
From the Urban Dictionary :
Bleg: A noun or verb; an appeal for thoughts or more to readers of one’s blog.
There are other definitions, but this is the current usage.
Your Law of Rules is incomplete. “We are free to follow the logical rather than the conventional rule,” but we do so at our own peril.
I don’t think any judge anywhere will fault you for putting the comma within the quote, which is the convention. Some will fault you for putting it outside, since it’s not the convention.
He said he was prepared to listen to Strunk or White. I gave him both.
For what it’s worth, and although I have a clear preference and practice, I understand it to be no more than convention.
The evidence seems to indicate that punctuation developed as an aid to public reading, to aid the speaker/reader in conveying the logic of the words. The conventions of punctuation as we do it today are a cock-up of logic, historic accident, and the influence of typesetters and authoritarian teachers and grammarians.
We adhere to them because, well, abandoning them altogether leads to confusion and misperception of various sorts. And because conventions generally serve us well. Except when they don’t.
It doesn’t “look right” because you’re accustomed to seeing the comma inside the quotation mark. But to me, it is this common practice which doesn’t “look right”. Part of my reason for now tending to place the comma outside the quotation mark is aesthetics, i. e., appearance. To me, there should be some relationship between appearance, sense, and intent. (Some art, for example, is meant to confuse.) Thus, not only is the comma not part of the quotation, but the placement of it inside the quotation marks does not visually convey what is going on at that point in a sentence; and certainly does not convey what is going on at the end of the sentence with the period outside of the quotation mark. So for me, it’s not only my feel for grammar and logic, but my sense of aesthetics which feels unsettled by coming upon a comma inside quotation marks.
(Tip: You can often get around making a decision on this by using a semicolon in a sentence; which from what I recall, always goes outside the quotation mark.)
Bennett’s Law of Rules.
I was just talking about this on Tuesday with one of my authors. Modern American English puts periods and commas inside the quotation marks regardless of whether it was part of the original quote. Other punctuation goes outside the quotes unless of course it is part of the quote. British English puts everything outside the quotations.
So I guess you’re more of a Brit.
Marilou, a bleg is a beg on a blog – a request for assistance from readers.
Conventions which are wrong should not be followed. It is wrong to place your own commas inside of quotation marks, because what is inside the quotation marks should be what is quoted and nothing else. It is a corruption of language and thought to do it.
The English are our betters in some areas, as demonstrated by such magnificent creations as Austin Healeys and Jaguars. And this is another area in which we should promptly yield.
You’re not Strunk or White. You’re Gamso. You can’t fool me.
So I’ll channel another prescriptivist here. Edward P.J. Corbett, The Little English Handbook: Choices and Conventions (4th Edition):
“The period or the comma always goes inside the closing quotation mark.”
I am something of a prescriptivist in my own usage. Except when I’m not. I’m pretty much a descriptivist when it comes to others’ choices.
It’ll not be adopted by me or by the likes of me. A period sticking outside the quotation marks is like you running around with a malfunctioning zipper. Don’t do it. I had no idea this debate would rage into the afternoon. I’ve been cajoling Scott for months now about this problem. I’ve tried being like Nike and saying “Just do it.” I’ve tried acting helpless and saying “C’mon, appease me.” I’ve appealed to his concern for my reputation by saying “People will think I’m a bad editor if you don’t start doing it right.” All to no avail. I never go back and look to see if he fixed the things that I e-mail him about. I’m not really all that controlling. But now he has brought the squabble to the forefront. I’m not looking for validation or victory here, just a resolution with which we can both live happily ever after. Fix your zipper. It’s the right thing to do, and the right way to do it.
Rhymes with that other word you used this morning. Ewww
Doesn’t matter if he’s a Brit or not. It’s his audience that should be the deciding factor. I suspect most of us are not Brits. Therefore, put the quotation marks on the outside.
I’ve yielded to a Brit on exactly three occasions, during a NATO exercise in Norfolk. Grammar was not involved. The Brits are not going to be the deciding factor in this one.
Thanks! Scott is much younger than I. Hence his reliance on the Urban Dictionary. I’m down with it now. Thanks!
As everybody says, including Strunk & White, the convention is that no matter the size of the quote, the comma goes inside the the quotation marks. But it’s a sin against logic, and it will doom us all.
Some commenters have hinted at the problem by pointing out that putting the comma inside the quotation marks implies that it is part of the quotation, which it’s not. Us brainy humans can usually figure out what’s going on, but computers aren’t that smart. To a computer, the relative positions of quotation marks and commas are extremely important and precise: There’s no room for flexibility just because the the 18th century typesetters to whom we are all enslaved thought moving the commas inside the quotes would be more pleasing.
So, in some not-too-distant future, some overworked computer programmer will momentarily confuse the normal rules of all programming languages with his insomnia-induced flashbacks of Mrs. Grundy’s English class and he will write
shutdown “Antimatter Reactor 1,” “Antimatter Reactor 2”
when he clearly should have written
shutdown “Antimatter Reactor 1”, “Antimatter Reactor 2”
and the computer will say to itself, “I know what ‘Antimatter Reactor 2’ refers to, and I’d know what ‘Antimatter Reactor 1’ referred to if anybody mentioned it, but I never heard of anything called ‘Antimatter Reactor 1,’ so I’ll just ignore it.”
Then Antimatter Reactor 1 will explode in a fireball the size of Texas, killing half the people on Earth and leaving the rest to die in the ensuing 1000 years of nuclear winter.
I hope you grammarians are pleased with yourselves.
If our survival as a species rests on the certainty that there will never be an unfortunate typographical error we’re in even more trouble than if it rests on there never being a General Jack D. Ripper.
Although, when you get right down to it, we’re probably doomed either way.
Weinberg’s Second Law: If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.
As an aside, I notice that nobody has mentioned that yesterday was National Punctuation Day!
This has been going on far too long for National Punctuation Day to have any import in the debate. I’ve been begging Scott to roll over and play dead on this one for months now. And for some of us, National Punctuation Day is EVERY day. Don’t tease me.
This is a quote from one of your recent posts: “Bite me, Bambi.” If the period belongs outside the quotation marks, why didn’t you do it that way?
First of all, the part you quote is itself a quote from the New York Times. They’re kind of old school about punctuation.
Second, there’s no way you’d know this, but I’m Mark, and the post you refer to was written by my co-blogger Ken. (If he lasts longer than my other co-bloggers, I’ll probably have to give up the Windypundit pseudonym, alas.) Anyway, Ken’s got an MBA, so his writing is probably beyond anybody’s help.
I noticed after I sent the question that it was a quote from another source. And I wondered, too, how to determine which of you used the alias at any given time. (sigh) I guess we’ll just have to arm-wrestle. By the way, I found a correction for you in that post. Send me your e-mail address and I’ll share it so you can pass it on to your alter-ego.
Marilou, I don’t have your email address, so I don’t know where to send you anything, except by co-opting Scott’s comment section. You can find all our addresses in the right-hand column on my blog.
Marilou, I’m with you on this one. Frankly, I’m bit surprised that no one has cited to Bryan Garner’s Modern American Usage. Garner, generally considered the most modern commentator on usage rules, is quite explicit that for commas and periods, American usage puts them in quotations. And for the lawyers here still holding on to their decaying copies of Strunk & White, I suspect you still insist on putting two spaces after periods too, huh? Honestly, I think lawyers these days would benefit by sitting down with two books: Garner’s Modern American Usage and Matthew Butterick’s Typography for Lawyers. You would be surprised how much things have changed over the last 15 years.
That I “would be surprised how much things have changed over the last 15 years” argues, in my mind, in favor of using the logical rather than the conventional rule, at least when I’m writing for love of writing (rather than to impress a court).
Things will change in the next 15 years as well; it’d be neat if the changes included a return to the logical rule.
As I said, I do the commas inside. That isn’t a recent change. If anything, it’s an old-fashioned Americanism. I find Garner interesting, and I refer to it with some regularity, but (1) he’s not as committed to the inside comma as you seem to think; and (2) he’s got his own eccentricities.
For instance, he’s been insisting for years now that briefs should relegate all citations to footnotes because having them in the text is distracting. When I went to law school after years as an academic in the humanities, I found citations in the text distracting. As I was getting used to putting them there, MLA style changed and started demanding partial citation in the text, joining much of the rest of the academic world.
Frankly, we’re distracted by typographical conventions we aren’t used to. Any change will be, temporarily distracting. Garner, who’s committed to the view that what he doesn’t find distracting isn’t and what he does is just doesn’t get that.
Butterick urges attention to typography. More power to him. But the rush of the “modern” isn’t the same as best practices. Anyhow, we are talking about convention and for most of us that’s whatever we learned years ago.
And yes, I still put two spaces after a sentence-ending period (or any other sentence-ending punctuation mark). I’ve yet to see a font where I don’t think the space space doesn’t help provide a visual reminder that the sentence is over and another about to begin.
I don’t think anyone was suggesting that comma-inside-quotes is a recent American innovation.
It would be interesting to know when it started, though, and why.
There’s no arguing faith.
However, for what it’s worth, the Texas public education system – or at least the Arlington Independant School District – teaches – or at least once taught – that you’re wrong, Scott.
Keep the faith, Marilou!
Scare quotes?
Anyway, Marilou is right. No one should ever ‘doubt’ her; be scared, if you challenge her knowledge of points grammatical or “punctuational.”
We were both a little stubborn on that one! This discussion was quite lively, and opinions were expressed by people I had not previously known. I met some new bloggers, and that’s always a bonus. Now, my punctuation demands are really only suggestions, don’t cause the readers to believe that I’m demanding and inflexible!! And once again, this wasn’t a contest, just an effort to make the blog the best it can be!
And I very much appreciate your efforts.
Dammit! Scott caved. So soon, too, after only 50 some odd comments. This is strangely upsetting.
Not to mention that I would have liked to read more about Marilou, Brits and NATO exercises.
I know Scott doesn’t like links, but I don’t think I’ve ever violated the policy before and this is completely on point here: http://www.typographyforlawyers.com/
Mark,
I’ll ask Bryan tomorrow. I’ll post here with the answer once I hear back.
This site says that North American grammar rules are different because we Yanks still do things the way everyone did them 150 years ago.
If the judge is focusing on a debatable issue of punctuation, I’ve obviously failed to make my argument compelling.
I’m a big fan of the semicolon also; it’s my favorite punctuation mark!!
As a double English major, I can confirm your Editor’s placement of the comma outside of the quotations.
My editor’s placement was inside the quotations for a single quoted word. Outside was my placement. Thanks for playing.
If we’re going to play these games, I have graduate degrees in English and taught freshman comp for 15 years – at Michigan State, Texas Tech, and then for a semester at the University of Toledo.
Punctuating quotations is today, and whichever side of the pond you’re on, largely a matter of convention. That doesn’t mean people don’t have strong feelings about it. It does mean that there’s no necessarily right answer.