The email spoke about mentoring, but it was really about networking. The kid needed a job, and was asking anybody he could find whether they could help. He found me, and he asked. He wanted to have coffee or lunch with me so I could share my “insight.”
It wasn’t the overt email, the one that said he was dying to work with me, and sent to 500 lawyers. But it had that sense of desperation to it. I’m a sucker for wanting to help young lawyers. I responded that I didn’t think I had any “insight” worth sharing, but I would be happy to meet with him. We set up a lunch to sit down and talk.
He came in a suit, and looked terrific. I came in khakis and a leather jacket, like a preppie ready to rumble. The question in my mind was twofold, whether he was an entitled slacker, angry that he wasn’t getting the BMW right away, or someone who went to law school because he actually wanted to be a lawyer. I had something to say no matter which way he went, but one was less pleasant than the other.
He turned out to be the real thing, and I like him. He wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer, and he understood what that meant. The problem, he explained, is that with the numbers of unemployed lawyers walking the streets like zombies, The Legal Aid Society, the private institutional defenders, won’t even look at lawyers without experience. Why take a raw recruit when they can get a seasoned veteran?
He explained that he was happy to work for free, to carry bags, to fetch coffee. He would sit in the hallway, on the floor, next to the copy machine, if it would allow him to get some experience. But even private criminal defense lawyers didn’t want him for free.
I explained that n00bs were a problem: they sucked up time and oxygen, and made lawyers feel bad. The time it took to think up busy work to keep them occupied, to answer the incessant questions, to try to provide some work that would grow their ability to actually practice law, had to come from somewhere. And if we just let them sit in the hallway counting their toes, we would feel awful about it. Nobody wants to feel awful.
There were a few ideas about things he could do for himself, to “network” with real lawyers in a way that held some potential for him to both learn a bit about the practice of law and perhaps meet some people who were in a position to mentor him. My practice wasn’t going to help him, and he wasn’t in a position to help my practice. He wore a suit for nothing. I felt bad about the waste of a clean shirt.
At the end of lunch, he graciously offered to pay the tab. He should have, since he asked me to go to lunch. And I told him to forget it, as there was no way I was going to let this nice kid buy me lunch. Don’t get any ideas that this means I’ll pay for your lunch too. I’m no sucker. But I was happy to buy this young lawyer a meal.
Afterward, I sent out some emails to some people I know about this young lawyer. Some were friends. Others, not so much. The responses were the same. There’s no place for a new lawyer to go. Nobody wants one.
The implications for the criminal defense bar are staggering. Biglaw can get them anytime they want, dangling the BMW in front of them like some Pavlovian freak show. Criminal defense doesn’t have it so easy, offering little more than the opportunity to get your butt kicked daily and be reminded that we’re about as loved and admired as an abandoned pitbull. And not too many get rich defending people these days.
Who will be the criminal defense lawyers ten years from now? Not just the ones whose bread and butter are assigned indigent cases, but even the ones staffing the well for institutional defenders? Their cadre of slightly experiences lawyers is bound to run dry eventually, and there will be no new group of lawyers to fill their spots. Working your way up the ladder to someday land a position with an indigent defender isn’t exactly the path to wealth and prestige, and when there are hungry babies to feed, there’s a marked shift in priorities.
Not that I have an answer to this dilemma. I understand that the money isn’t there for the Legal Aid Society or institutional defenders to field a farm team, to bring these young, enthusiastic, motivated n00bs aboard and prepare them to take over the heavy lifting of more experienced lawyers. I realize that private lawyers barely have the business to keep themselves afloat, no less worry about student loan payments for the kids sitting in the hallways.
But it’s a problem, and it’s going to become a bigger problem over time. And spending an hour with a fine young lawyer for whom I have no useful insight puts the problem front and center. It does nothing to help him, and makes me feel particularly lousy about my inability to help. It’s a miserable hour. At least the food was good.
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I suppose the private criminal defense bar will eventually be staffed by experienced biglaw washouts. And hey, if you’ve put together a privilege log in a complicated multi-district litigation, criminal law should be a cinch, right?
What a dumb kid. He spent an hour with you learning what? How to build a practice by word of mouth, doing good work and what was that term – “networking?”
He could have saved a lot of time just tweeting with some 8 month failed lawyer who sells the promise of wealth and fame on the internet with a smile.
The other day a colleague and I were sitting in the courthouse cafeteria after our respective hearings. We both commented on the amount of lawyers in court who we’ve never seen before. We know who they are. They’re the unemployable representing folks for a song and a few nickels so they can pay the rent. They’re all pleading guilty, no motions are being filed, just a few minutes at the podium telling the person next to you to “say yes your honor.”
Combine the inexperienced dwelling the halls of criminal court with the clients who don’t know any better and think $500 is a great fee for a felony, and there goes the criminal defense bar.
It’s always been the few clients looking for the few lawyers who are good, who charge the fees that good lawyers charge, that connect with each other. Those clients are less and less. Sad to say but the only thing that balances out the drop is the good criminal lawyers leaving the practice for the greener grass of personal injury (so they’re told).
There will always be room for a good criminal defense lawyer. You just have to get there, and getting there these days, whether it be through a job with the DA or public defender, is becoming more and more difficult. People arent leaving, turnover is a thing of the past, and the new kids are left to hang out in the hallways pretending to know what they are doing – while the marketers help them pretend.
Anyone who wants to support future defense lawyers should contribute to The Southern Public Defender Training Center http://www.thespdtc.org/ and Equal Justice Works http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/
[Edit. Note: I’m letting Alex post these links because I like him better than I like you. Don’t test me.]
Great plan. What could possibly go wrong?
A tweeting 8 month failed lawyer? No, can’t quite place the reference. Could you be more specific?
I know it doesn’t pay the bills, but volunteering at the Public Defender’s office or an organization like it seems like the only way to get the right experience.
I’m doing that in MD, and I know they don’t turn away anyone willing to volunteer; in return we get to follow and watch experienced lawyers, get real trial and docket experience, and receive OPD training courses focusing on practical skills like SEO. No wait, make that case theory and theme development, storytelling, and integrating the theme in cross-examination.
Mind you, this is just what I’ve seen after a couple of months.
Would it be nice to be hired? Absolutely, but I’ve resigned myself to the knowledge that I won’t be until I get some real experience.
Not all PDs want volunteers, and even volunteering has diminishing returns for the host. And then, there’s also the problem of using volunteers to relieve society of the burden of paying for the authority to prosecute people a la Gideon.
But if you have a place to go in the morning that allows you to grow into a lawyer, do it.
Sad to say, but there aren’t many lawyers with your visibility who would take the time to meet, send out emails and pay for lunch besides. You helped this kid more than you can possibly imagine.
I get yelled at by the entitled whenever I suggest volunteering, so I commend you for it. It beats sitting home thanking people for the retweet or seeing if you can top 6000 comments on ATL.
That’s ridiculous. Lawyers aren’t celebrities. There isn’t one of us who shouldn’t be accessible to a kid who needs to talk.
It’s just that people like to yell at you, and if they can’t find a better reason, then they’ll use volunteering. Whatever.
Having run defender programs and taught at a law school, I have often been confronted by students and new lawyers trying to figure out how to break into criminal defense. I fear that we lose a great deal of talent to other forms of legal practice because the opportunities are few. I started my own practice, but that is very hard and is difficult to recommend to someone with student loans to repay. I hope that I will eventually be able to create a program within the Harris County Public Defender’s Office for such persons to learn and get experience, while also getting paid.
I expect you will be the guy who creates the program that will serve as a model for all other public defender offices nationwide. Would next week be too soon?
Sir, I can recall a Post or two were you simply replied back that you were unable to assist the newborn.
This time you decided to take the plunge. One thing is for certain, the guppy will never forget that the shark allowed him a moment of his personal time for the rest of his life. Despite what others may puke up, the positive act on your part will transfer into a positive job seeker on his part.
As for as that goes, one of Harris County’s falsely arrested, wrongfully convicted & subsequently denied a Full Pardon – for innocence – will ‘never’ forget that you took (personal)time to provide insight. Insight & answers that not one single attorney/lawyer would touch since 1998. Insight that allowed me to understand what was ‘not’ supposed to have been allowed in a court of law and to heal as a victim of the system resulting in restoring a little faith in the profession.
*I hope that this SJ Post leads to more than merely being read and commented on. Hopefully someone with the juice as you say, will jump-start the creation of a nationwide mandatory 12 month mentor-ship program, where real CDLs are required to sponsor / mentor one candidate every 3 years. No girl / boy Friday BS. Real OJT in nothing but CDL, with a base pay which is tax deductible due to being a training & business expense. This is just a starting point thought in which can be shot down or added to.
Failure to launch an OJT program is equal to the experienced looking out for themselves and blaming the demise of the profession on other factors. Thanks.
I tell all the babies that there are no magic bullet answers, and most disappear. This young man persisted, which was why we had lunch. I respect intelligent persistence.
I need some advice, can we go to lunch?
Keyword: Intelligent.
FWIW, I believe there is a mentoring program of sorts in the EDNY and SDNY for attorneys interested in becoming eligible to get on the CJA panel. I don’t know anyone who has participated in it, nor have I heard much about it, but it seems like a good idea and the people whose names I see associated with it have strong reputations. I don’t think its aimed at complete noobs- more like youngsters with some state experience who’d like to learn the ropes of federal practice.
I try to seem mean so that only those who really want it ask me for help.
For all the hate Tannenbaum and Greenfield get, they sure are generous with their time and wisdom.
When I was in college, I volunteered for a local political campaign. I lost a lot of money, and time… but I probably retained more contacts from that job than any other job I have ever worked. Sometimes you don’t make any money, but it pays off in contacts.
A lot of the people went on to do very interesting things. I could have flipped burgers and made a few bucks doing it, but ten years later I’m glad I volunteered.
Tannebaum doesn’t have 3 “n’s” you moron. And when I say “moron,” I’m being generous.
Fine, can I buy a vowel?
Finally!, a frigin comment that is in direct response to the SJ Post (above). Hopefully the comedians have moved on to work on motions or defending a client or two.
With that out of the way, I challenge you Mr. Bunin right here , right now, to be the one. But, I also beg you to re-consider if you are going to do nothing more than re-teach them the art of “Plea bargaining 201” at lunch recess. Texas damn sure doesn’t need another “King of Nolo Contendre”.
Please consider teaching them that they are being hired to take a stand on behalf of the client & taxpayers. Mandating a policy of refusing to plea bargain once the jury is seated with client’s signature. Taking 100% of not guilty pleas to verdict and let the jury do their duty. Show them how to properly create Discovery Motions and the importance of their timely filing (30 days prior to trial is a joke). Would it be too much to ask that you also teach them to let the court / jury know if the ADA has ignored or provided requested info.?
A program creator worth his / her salt would already know the importance of teaching them to obtain copies of the police incident report, police mug-shot photo. Then there’s the reading of the material. If one can’t or refuses to compare a crime victim’s original suspect description to any (Supplemental) info. provided afterwards or to the suspect turned client – he / she isn’t ready to defend. If all CDLs did their jobs on the front end we’d see an abrupt end to Mistaken Identity & Plea bargaining being major factors in wrongful convictions.
Add to it, shoot it down or choke on it. It’s up to one of you to put your money where your mouths are, anything less ignores the thousands of noobs that will eventually fill some pretty stinky shoes. *Then again, the law allows a Divorce & Will specialist to dabble in criminal law and walk away with little or no consequences. Thanks (to the real CDLs & may the dabblers, wannabees & wusses drown in the sweat of a thousand camels).
Mr. Griffith, the comedians have not moved on. We’re right here with our quick one liners and jokes. We dont have the time for 12 paragraph diatribes that evidence a total lack of a sense of humor and too much time on our hands.
Just a question I think related…
As you know, there’s a bunch of fuss these days about unpaid interns, i.e., ‘volunteers’, being, well, unpaid. Perhaps this hasn’t hit law as it has other sectors, including government.
But is there financial and legal liability in taking on interns rather than paid worker bees?
Alex is the real deal. We may joke a lot around here, given what we do, but there are serious people here when it comes to doing the right thing, and getting it done. Alex Bunin is not only one of the good guys, but one of the guys who means what he says.
It’s my understanding there is a liability issue for using unpaid worker bees when they receive no materail benefit in exchange.
Wow! I was busy and did not see all the follow up posts until now. First, I will need more than one week (perhaps more than two), to solve all the problems in the criminal justice system, including training a cadre of brand-new criminal defense attorneys. Second, while I do accept volunteer help from students, I make sure they do get real work experience and training in return. What I would like to create is a system where they get paid to develop as new lawyers, so they could either be hired here, another defender office, or be qualified for cases as assigned counsel.
I see that I’m going to need to direct you to the “reply to this” button to maintain a semblance of cogency to the thread.
As said above, if anybody can make this happen, it’s you.
OK. Rules, rules, rules …
Thanks for the confidence.
So, then, ‘experience’ counts as a ‘tangible benefit’? Like ‘education’?
In other words, you’re suggesting that an apprenticeship is what the trade needs? Apprentices get paid, if only pennies, but interns and volunteers tend not to be paid.
No, I”m thinking about $40k to “apprentice.”