Among the sadder things that happened when Rupert Murdoch made Fox News a thing was his taking Greta Van Susteren from us. Once a highly-regarded criminal defense lawyer, she was replaced by a woman with a lovely nose who toed the company line. So sad.
When Eric Wemple wrote of Greta’s views on Pamela Geller’s Garland fiasco, it came as no surprise that they would be shrouded in the “yes but” formula that has become de rigueur. But what was not quite so anticipated was what Greta found to be the greater concern.
So Van Susteren scolded Geller for holding the cartoon contest. “My message is simple — protect our police. Do not recklessly lure them into danger and that is what happened in Garland, Texas at the Muhammad cartoon contest,” she said. “Yes, of course, there’s a First Amendment right and it’s very important, but the exercise of that right includes using good judgment.”
Many have fairly asked whether Geller’s decision to court disaster was needless stupid and provocative. And that being a question directed at personal choices, it’s hard to argue that this was either wise or necessary. What it was, however, was her choice, so the rest of us may well hold an opinion on whether we would have done the same thing, but we don’t get a vote. Geller gets to make her own decision, and we don’t have to like it.
And as is almost invariably the case, Greta, the one-time respected lawyer, heads straight down the First Amendment but path, adding to the myriad newfound exceptions the “good judgment” one. It’s no more to be found in the Constitution or caselaw than hate speech, but so what? Since everybody is making up the law they like these days, why not Greta?
Yet, this isn’t just the banal “yes but” argument. It’s an homage to the brave police who were “lured into danger.” The tradeoff is the exercise of constitutional rights, even if the exercise doesn’t strike anyone as a particularly good use of them, versus police safety.
Some might blame the gunmen who came to kill for any inchoate risk to police, who responded to the gunmen. After all, provocative as Geller’s scheme might have been, it didn’t necessarily require violent reaction.
“Everyone knew this event would unglue some who might become violent,” said Van Susteren.
Was violence possible? Sure. Definite? Hardly. Are there people out there who become “unglued,” who might become violent? Well, yeah, Greta excluded. But one never knows that provocative expression will result in violence. Maybe it will result in nothing. Maybe somewhere in between. Everyone doesn’t know. Everyone who cares may make a guess, but no one “knows.”
As Wemple makes clear, the police weren’t “lured” into danger by Geller, but did the job they exist to do. He puts it as protecting the Constitution. That may be overstating their virtues, as it was unlikely they gave the Constitution a second’s thought. They came because there were guys with guns.
Van Susteren went further astray with this comment: “But was it fair to the police to knowingly put them at risk by this unnecessary provocation? I say no,” she said.
This moves the opinion in a different direction, away from the question of constitutional right, and more toward the relative tradeoff of life and limb versus the value of the gambit.
It’s here that we give thanks that Van Susteren is merely a television host and not a government official, because we wouldn’t want anyone at the levers of power deciding what provocations are “unnecessary” and “necessary.” Perhaps Van Susteren can furnish a two-tiered list on her next show.
Expression is protected by the First Amendment whether it’s necessary or not. But there is a fair question, without equivocation on whether there is a right to do something, whether it’s something you really want to do? Geller obviously thought the choice was sufficiently important to do so. Greta is allowed to think it a foolish gambit, an “unnecessary provocation” as in a really stupid thing to do. A lot of people agree that it was unnecessary in that sense.
But if Geller felt it necessary, and had a right to do so, then again, neither Greta nor anyone else gets a vote in Geller’s exercise of her constitutional right, foolish or otherwise. And then Greta brought in an expert on foolishness to express distaste for Geller and her choice.
To bolster this brief segment, Van Susteren turned to Donald Trump, who had said earlier on Fox News of Geller: “She’s a provocateur. All she is doing is provoking and taunting people and this country has enough problems right now.”
That’s not all she is doing, though she is provoking and taunting people. She is exercising her right to free speech. There is a long list of arguments to be made about why Geller’s choice wasn’t a good one, a wise one, and people are absolutely entitled to think Geller made a really poor decision. That too is free speech, where we challenge the merits of another person’s freedom of expression because we disagree or think it was just pretty damn stupid.
But the connection of the exercise of constitutional rights to police safety is inexplicable and unjustifiable. Greta, of all people, ought to know better than to make this hookup.
“My message is simple — protect our police. Do not recklessly lure them into danger.”
It’s not our job to “protect our police” by declining to exercise constitutional rights for fear that they may be put at risk. And to the credit of the police, they came and did their job, defending people from harm and, whether they realized it or not, defending the Constitution. This is important, no matter how wrong you think Geller was. It would be one thing had Greta, in order to curry favor with her Fox News overlords, praised the police for their defense of a looney’s constitutional rights, but instead she blamed Geller for not putting police safety first. Sad. So sad, Greta.
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I’m not sure Greta’s bosses are telling her what to think. Or if they are, they are telling her and O’Reilly to take positions opposite Megyn Kelly (who apparently had Volokh as a guest) and Sean Hannity. Politico weighed on the disconnect with an article about how “Fox pundits can’t decide whether to cheer or jeer Pamela Geller.”
Hannity apparently talked to both Geller and Anjem Choudary, and managed to extract the honest assessment from the latter that Geller should be put before a sharia court and tried, “and if found guilty, of course she would face capital punishment.”
I don’t think she’s told what to do either, but this isn’t the Greta who existed before Fox News.
Greta was far better on CNN with the other lawyer (forgot his name). Since going to Fox, she has lost her objectivity.
The first amendment is more central to American liberty than any other amendment. Americans literally died to protect that fundamental right. There should not be arguments whether or not there is merit to free speech. Greta, who would be that judge?
The antidote to distasteful speech is one’s own speech and their free expression of ideas. We should never cowtail to threats from groups just because we have something to say. We should also never assume that there will be violent repercussions just due to speech.
Doesn’t Greta understand that it is a rabbits hole to go down the path of any restrictions to free speech? She knows better but she is now on Fox News.
I guess employing the “Yes But” logic those black civil right marchers. protestors, etc. should not have engaged in these actions as it would needlessly provoke racists in the south and elsewhere to acts of violence
That’s the logical comparison. The difference, of course, is fighting racism is viewed as a worthwhile exercise of free speech, worth dying for. That’s where it all falls apart, as the value of the argument depends on some outside commentator’s view of the value of the speech, which flies in the face of the 1st Amendment.
You mentioned “hate speech” and what a fuzzy wuzzy judge could do in an earlier post. If this “yes…,but” variant of the First Amendment gets legs and grows, could the f-w judge be of concern here?
What do you think?
I am guessing “yes” but until I read these blogs, I had never considered this. Too much naive faith in judges.
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That is the most pretzel like piece of doublethink I have ever seen. Heck, this is probably at least triple if not quadruple think. I know faux news likes to bend over backwards for the police state but this is mind boggling, especially when it involves turning on their own wingnut viewer base. Thanks for diving into the cesspool to retrieve this so that the rest of us are spared the ordure.
One can believe in the absolute right to do something, yet still think another an idiot for exercising that right irresponsibly.
So you happened to be watching Fox News on the T.V. in 2008…
Not sure what to think about that exactly. Now, if you could just kick that daily NYT habit you might be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I am impressed that you remember writing about Greta.
Unfortunately it looks like that nose job
continues to affect her ‘vision’ and her ability to think more than one move ahead.
I would have never guessed she was a CDL once upon a time. Was she any good?
Speaking of reckless luring… her and Rupert would make a cute couple.
If they ever hook up I hope they make a sex tape. She is gonna look smoking hot as a police woman. Rupert will look pretty good in cuffs too but I wonder if he likes to squeal when he is spanked?
Damn you & projection of mental images..
is it getting to the point that I have to guess how someone will react to umm.. my free speech, & if I don’t I can be held liable for their reactions ??
i can’t name the cases, but hasn’t the Supreme’s held that certain words being inflammatory, or causing riotous behavior, isn’t protected by the 1st amendment ??
I can see both sides of this ..
don’t kick the fence & they won’t bark at you.. vs. I kicked the fence to draw attention to a problem I wanna yell about..
Am I gonna have to ‘ask’ if it’s ok to kick the fence ??
As fast as our rights are becoming null & void, & I can’t say I agree with this instance of ‘The 1st’ being invoked..
i stand with kicking the fence..
“I have no clue what I’m talking about, but that ain’t gonna stop me, cuz I can just make up fuzzy things in my head and it’s, like, just as good as law, right?”
You are thinking of the “fighting words” doctrine from Chaplinsky. Click on the link. Read the case. Shepardize. Read the cases since. Ponder their meaning, detail, impact. Then, and only then, are you entitled to have an opinion worth considering. Until then, you have mush, much like those who learn the law from TV, and should keep it to yourself so as to avoid making other people stupider. You’re welcome.
https://youtu.be/X_kuC35F06E
Yes, but .. but …. but HELL yes!
If only.