Nurse Alex Wubbels Refused

She was an alpine skier in the 1998 and 2002 Olympics under the name Shaffer, and is now a nurse at Salt Lake City’s University Hospital. It may not take bravery to be an elite skier, but it takes grit. And Alex Wubbel had both bravery and true grit.

Det. Jeff Payne wanted to take a blood draw from an unconscious patient, not because he had any probable cause to believe that he was drunk or high, but because he was told to do so. The patient, a reserve police officer who drove a tractor-trailer, had been in a fatal crash and was severely burned.

Payne was told by his watch commander to draw blood. Wubbels refused to let him. Payne had cuffs and a gun. All Wubbels had was law and the grit to tell the cop “no.”

Wubbels says blood cannot be taken from an unconscious patient unless the patient is under arrest, unless there is a warrant allowing the draw or unless the patient consents. The detective acknowledges in the footage that none of those requirements is in place, but he insists that he has the authority to obtain the draw, according to the footage.

Wubbels was conveying hospital policy, but more importantly, the policy aligned with the law.

[Wubbels’ lawyer, Karra] Porter, however, said “implied consent” has not been the law in Utah since 2007, and theU.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2016 that the Constitution permits warrantless breath tests in drunken-driving arrests, but not warrantless blood tests. She stressed that the patient was always considered the victim in the case and never was suspected of wrongdoing.

This didn’t work at all for Payne, who failed to see why his order wasn’t more than sufficient for Wubbels to do as he commanded. After all, he’s a cop, and whatever a cop believes he’s entitled to do is “the law” as far as his exercise of force is concerned.

At one point, Payne threatens to take Wubbels to jail if he doesn’t get the sample, and he accuses her of interfering with a criminal case.

“I either go away with blood in vials or body in tow,” Payne says.

But what about the brave men in the hospital to stand up for Wubbels?

The footage shows the detective dragging Wubbels out of the hospital and putting her inside a patrol car as she screams, “Help! Help! Somebody help me! Stop! Stop! I did nothing wrong!”

A University of Utah police officer and Department of Public Safety officers, who provide security for the hospital, were present at time of the arrest and did not intervene.

They were in a quandary, forced to decide whether to face off with Det. Payne or protect Nurse Wubbels from false arrest. They chose their own, and that wasn’t Wubbels.

In a written report, Payne said he was responding to a request from Logan police to get the blood sample, to determine whether the patient had illicit substances in his system at the time of the crash. Payne explained the “exigent circumstances and implied consent law” to Wubbels, but, according to his report, she said “her policies won’t allow me to obtain the blood sample without a warrant.”

Payne reported that he was directed to arrest Wubbels for interfering with a police investigation at the direction of his watch commander. Following this arrest, where Wubbels got the typical perp treatment of her arms being grabbed, twisted behind her back and cuffed, she wasn’t charged. Then again, neither was Payne, who was taken off phlebotomy duty but otherwise remains an active detective.

Alex Wubbels did what a nurse, a health care professional, is supposed to do: she protected her patient. Too many docs are all too happy to cooperate with the police at the expense of the body in their care. Indeed, too many are happy to do the dirty work for them, wanting so badly to be on the side of the guys with guns. Wubbels refuse to be complicit in a physical violation of an unconscious person just because a cop said so.

The rule of thumb is comply now, grieve later. And it would have been the easier path for Wubbels to stand aside and let Payne do as he wanted. Easier for Wubbels, even if not for the unconscious patient. Ironically, it might even have been a choice the patient would have made, had he been capable of making it. But that wasn’t for Wubbels to decide. Her duty was to protect the patient. She did her duty.

As for Payne, there is the facile rationalization that he’s just a cop and thus too ignorant to be expected to know something so hard and complex as law before he exercises his power to do harm. So he got the law wrong? The Supreme Court says that happens, and it’s not a cop’s fault for being ignorant. Dumb cops. Too bad. That’s why they came up with the Reasonably Stupid Cop Rule.

But by arresting Wubbels, Payne went a step beyond the pale. She wasn’t his perp, but a nurse doing her job just as he believed he was doing his. There is a laundry list of vague offenses designed to fill the gap when a cop really needs to arrest somebody but has no actual wrongdoing to use. Resisting arrest, for example. Obstruction of justice as well. Or interfering in a criminal investigation, even if it it wasn’t and she was doing nothing more than the law allowed.

This is the incentive system crafted by a Supreme Court that has tacitly decided that not only do all ties go to the cops, but any call remotely explainable as well. Basically, the Court has chosen to stay far away from any line that might make a cop hesitate because of the hard work of thinking and chosen instead to protect the cops’ choice, even if it’s wrong and unlawful, so as not to risk harm to a cop or let a single bad dude get away.

This time, a tough nurse named Alex Wubbels got nabbed by some ignorant mutt named Payne. Guess which one is the hero.

92 comments on “Nurse Alex Wubbels Refused

  1. Tim Cushing

    Ignorance is next to pettiness in law enforcement. Love how the officer says he’s going to punish the hospital for its employee being right by funneling “transients” to them while taking “good patients” elsewhere during his moonlight patient transport gig.

    1. SHG Post author

      The collateral pettiness reflects a different problem (which is why I left it out of the post). The job tends to be filled with petty people, but whether it attracts the petty or breeds it remains unclear. Either way, they are petty.

      1. Jerri Lynn Ward

        To me that is not collateral since he is licensed as a paramedic, but that’s the health law attorney in me after having witnessed clients getting crushed by regulators for less.

        1. SHG Post author

          I don’t suggest it’s collateral, but that they are invariably accommodating of errors of law and fact in the service of order.

  2. B. McLeod

    Intervening to protect someone from false arrest is as poor an idea as resisting your own false arrest. It is likely to lead to somebody getting hurt due to an escalation in officer misconduct. Whoever is being falsely arrested, the best play is to wait and address it with the courts.

    1. SHG Post author

      Non-cop-on-cop never turns out well, but cop-on-cop is a different dynamic. There were hospital cops there. They were cowards.

      1. B. McLeod

        My brother in law was a “hospital cop” for awhile, and his training and experience for that was having been a state game officer quite a few years before. He didn’t have any state commission or any authority to make arrests. Basically (at least here) the hospital officers are just private uniformed security whose job is to keep an eye on things and call the real police if something happens. Obviously, that doesn’t work too well when the real police are the problem.

        1. SHG Post author

          I hate to tell you this, but your brother in law is not the paradigm for all hospital cops everywhere. Some are actual cops with actual authority. But cool story, nonetheless.

  3. Keith

    But what about the brave men in the hospital to stand up for Wubbels?

    Perhaps beyond the scope of the post, but since you raised the question, in light of how Graham and other decisions have basically given cops a blank slate for “just following orders”, what would be suggested for a security guard or even a random constitutional freedom loving citizen, seeing such a flagrant false arrest, to do?

    Or was that just the point you were drilling home?

  4. Frank

    In the near future, police departments will be forced to build their own hospitals and hire their own medical staff, because honest citizens will refuse to deal with them. There is precedent, hospital policy already gives the boot to patients that are abusive and derogatory toward hospital staff. In this particular incident, I would say the officer is both.

    1. Jake

      Not all people are confused about the historical and present relationship between right-wing extremism and the law enforcement community.

      1. SHG Post author

        So when you’re beaten by a progressive, black, female, lesbian cop, it feels better? Cops are no more cartoon characters than you are.

  5. Tom H

    In Texas the cops will sometimes extend professional courtesy to emergency room employees. They don’t want to be wheeled into the trauma room and have someone say “That’s the guy that gave me a ticket last week.” Based on his parking lot comment, this guy must think he is bulletproof or he’s unreasonably dumb.

  6. Paul L.

    At the beginning the nurse tries to be a “Jailhouse Lawyer” to the cop. But he “knows what the law is” because he is a member of the Law Enforcement caste. She is trying to show that her authority in the Hospital overrides his as a cop.
    “Wubbels, who is surrounded by other hospital staffers, explains in the video that she is doing what her bosses told her to do. She eventually prints out a copy of the policy for blood draws – one that Salt Lake police agreed to more than a year ago, according to Porter – and shows it to the officer.”

    That is why she was arrested for “Contempt of Cop and Officer Payne knows that he has the full backing of his superiors and was just following orders.
    “But Payne insists he, too, is following orders.
    “I’m doing what I’m being told by my boss, and I’m going to do what my boss says,” Payne says sternly at one point in the recording.”

    I would guess Salt Lake City police are going quietly support Officer Payne, go into Bunker mode saying nothing and try to settle this behind the scenes.

    1. SHG Post author

      All true, but for the jailhouse lawyer characterization. It’s her duty, and the hospital’s duty, to know what their responsibility under the law is. This wasn’t make “stuff up time,” and they didn’t.

  7. Jake

    At first, I thought you were joking about Payne being ‘off the phlebotomy unit’ but I read another article on this subject and sure enough, that’s his assignment. It seems absurd to me that he would not know the implied consent law in Salt Lake City changed ten years ago. So absurd there’s probably court records somewhere of him learning this lesson the hard way.

    I hope they take him to the LEO version of the whipping post: 2 weeks paid vacation and desk duty for a month!

    1. davidnrobyn

      You know what I think? Based on some experience of mine, I would guess that he knew the implied consent law very well but was just bluffing the nurse. When she also knew it and was willing to stand on it, that was getting a bit too uppity.

      1. Barbara

        I agree. “Uppity” is the word.

        She called his bluff, stood her ground, and that she was a woman, it enraged him.

        “She was warned. She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted.”

        1. SHG Post author

          Exactly. She was female, and it would be a total waste if you didn’t reduce her to an identitarian cliche and prove that some women will seize upon any opportunity to demonstrate that they’re unhinged.

    2. GeorgeH

      Listen to his lawyer’s explanation of implied consent, especially for those with a CDL involved in a fatal vehicle accident. Blood must be drawn by a peace officer. Det Payne should be judged in a court of law not the media and a you tube video which is extremely biased. Police, Fire, Doctors, Nurses, EMTs need to cooperate with each other. The Hospital and Police department should have never let this happen, that’s why the Hospital changed their policy regarding Police interacting with nurses. The nurse was an olympic skier…how about Det Payne? Did he ever serve our country in the military, does he have a family, children? All we see is him doing his job and doing what he was told. An investigation will take place, I look forward to the result. What’s going to happen when the victim comes out of the coma that the hospital induced…will he any say in the matter?

      1. SHG Post author

        I felt neglected that no cop troll tried to rehabilitate Payne with some warm and fuzzy idiocy. Now I feel better that you’ve come to spew stupidity.

        1. GeorgeH

          There’s more to come tough guy. The law will decide this case after an investigation not a keyboard commando like yourself. Whatever they decide is fine with me. You should be ashamed of yourself, especially on 9/11. We need law enforcement and medical people to cooperate.

          1. SHG Post author

            I’m unconvinced by a guy who’s too big a pussy to use his name and couldn’t come up with a comment that wasn’t complete idiocy. But hey, when you’re a moron, you do the best you can, right tough guy?

            1. GeorgeH

              Right, shows your bad attitude towards law enforcement when you can’t even follow your own “rules”

              “I allow thoughtful comments, but please keep yours civil and respectful.”

            2. SHG Post author

              Oh, poor. George. Too bad reading isn’t your strength either. You have to read all the rules.

              I expect civility from you, but that does not mean I will respond in kind. This is my home and I make the rules. If you don’t like my rules, then don’t comment.

              But to tell you the truth, George, that’s the first refuge of a pussy. See the pink button on the right? That’s for guys like you.

            3. Scott Jacobs

              George, you are getting all the civility and respect people like you deserve. Which is none.

              Gotta problem with that, snowflake? Too fucking bad.

          2. Miles

            So here’s the thing, George. Whenever there’s a post about a cop who beclowns himself to the world and disgraces his shield, some intellectual munchkin shows up trying to spin their way out of the shit hole. The stories vary some, but they’re always totally idiotic and the fool who thinks he’s gonna get away with this idiocy gets his ass handed to him, comes back to double down on stupidity, and we all get a huge laugh out of it.

            You, George, are that guy. You, George, are the asshole who’s too stupid to realize he’s the asshole. And for that, I thank you, because we all need some fool to laugh at. You, George, are that fool.

            1. GeorgeH

              Miles,

              I am 73 years old, served my Country 3 years in the US ARMY including a year in Vietnam with the 1st Infantry division. Today is 9/11 – Patriots day and I thank you for your thoughtful response. One thing I have learned in life is that to survive you have to know when to punch and when to duck. It seems you know how to punch, but your assignment is to learn how to duck. Someone, someday if they haven’t already will come up to you and punch you in the face.

            2. SHG Post author

              Lots of people here served, George. You’re not special, except to the extent that they’re all laughing at a 73-year-old (assuming any of this is true and you’re not some 12-year-old tool). As for 9/11, you have no clue who you’re talking to, you flaming asswipe.

              Take your best swing Miles. See what happens.

            3. Scott Jacobs

              Pussies like you, George, never make good on their sad, pathetic threats – veiled or otherwise.

              Stop embarrassing yourself.

          3. Grock

            “GeorgeH” is insisting on hospital staff cooperation for what purpose exactly? Convenience? The patient was not the cause of the accident and unless I’m missing something, this wasn’t an exigent circumstances incident and thus actual not implied consent would be required no?

          4. Scott Jacobs

            There’s more to come tough guy.

            Suck my cock, you fucking pussy.

            Oh. Wait. I’m not a cop, so you probably aren’t game for that. How about you just snort my fucking taint then, blue-tongue?

            You’re a fucking authoritarian piece of shit, and I don’t give a fuck what day of the year it is. Just because today is the day some assholes decided to slam planes into buildings doesn’t mean Payne isn’t a cunt, and it doesn’t mean YOU aren’t a cunt for backing him.

            I’ll cooperate with the cops when the cops stop being violent thugs.

            So it’ll be a while, I think.

            1. GeorgeH

              Oh no, I’m so scared. Another tough guy with bad language hiding behind a keyboard getting his rocks off. You reveal a lot about your mental status.

            2. Miles

              Hi again, George. You realize, of course, that anyone can pretend to be anyone on the internet, right George? I kinda think you’re full of shit. That’s on top of being a fool.

              Nice chatting, George. If you want to take a poke at me, you old soldier you, anytime. My pleasure.

            3. SHG Post author

              I don’t really think George gets how the internet works. Maybe he is 73? Then again, an old fool is worse than a young fool.

            4. Scott Jacobs

              You’re the pussy that won’t use his full name.

              Come find me, George. Prove you’re a man, and not some cop-swallowing toad.

          5. Scrag'em

            Playing the 9/11 card to justify this violent civil rights violations? You just passed on the grave of every cop, firefighter, and military person murdered that day, GeorgeH. Hang your head in shame, you piece of sentient garbage.

      2. Scott Jacobs

        Look here, you authoritarian, badge-licking, fascist-fellating pile of shit…

        I know that you’re sort of stupid, but I’ll try to explain this to you even though I know I’m probably wasting my time…

        Implied consent doesn’t exist in Utah. At all. It hasn’t for about a decade, since Utah’s Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional. That means any argument that requires it as a justification is absolutely, positively, undeniably wrong. Period. It isn’t OK. Is it possible for you to wrap your thick fucking skull around that, fuckwit? Are you able to work your three brain cells sufficiently to grasp that?

        Also, nurses don’t, in fact, need to “cooperate” with law enforcement. It isn’t their God Damn job to do so. Only petty little proto-fascists like you think that everyone should adjust their lives and principles to make the job of the police easier. Payne wanted to violate someone’s right, and because of that EVERYONE should have been telling him to go fuck himself. I absolutely would have done exactly that.

        What Payne was in the past doesn’t fucking matter in the slightest – we know now that he’s currently a petty little authoritarian pile of shit that will abuse his authority at the drop of a hat. He had zero probable cause, and unless the rules have changed significantly, being the car that isn’t at fault in any way doesn’t mean you give up your rights. The guy on the gurney was the victim, not the suspect. The people that died were the suspects, they caused the crash while fleeing the police.

        Payne wasn’t doing his job, he was trying to abuse a citizen. The fact that you applaud that should shock and disgust me, but at this point I’ve stopped being shocked by the lengths a blue-tongue will go to defend thugs just because someone gave them a scrap of metal to pin to their fucking chest.

        1. GeorgeH

          America is a country of laws, that’s why most people like it here. Why don’t you just shut your big foul mouth and let the lawyers work it out. That’s the way it works here, if you don’t like it then get the hell out and go live with that fat little asshole with the bombs in North Korea.

          1. SHG Post author

            Jeez, George. Now you’re just making poor ol’ Miz Irony cry. We are indeed a nation of law (and we’re lawyers, George, whereas you’re a blithering idiot). That’s the problem, George. Payne broke the law. And if anybody would appreciate that fat little asshole in North Korea, George, it would be some moronic authoritarian who can’t tell the difference between law and control by ignorant and dangerous cops.

          2. Scott Jacobs

            You’re the fascist little cunt that wants to let cops flagrantly violate the law, George, not me. I want the cops to actually be required to not break the law. Which is why I want Payne in fucking prison.

            You, however, want to spend a night fluffing him because you’re a fucking pussy, George.

            You claim to love America, but you’re openly hostile to the rule of law. You want people to be subject to violations of their rights and THEN have to go get vindication from the courts. I want to keep the cops from violating rights in the first place.

            1. jim cline

              That’s okay. Maybe George will get to experience the joys of civil forfeiture and see how that remediation after the fact works out so well for the injured party.

      3. Scrag'em

        Terribly sorry that the hospital was a gun free zone, so no citizen could stop the kidnapping by a rogue cop. Maybe LEO’s will start showing proper deference to the law, the Constitution, and their employers (We the People) after a few incidents in which violent civil rights violations under color of law are met with deadly force.

      4. Bert Difig

        Listen to the Supreme Court, a higher legal authority than a single lawyer…

        http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/11-1425.html

        Majority of 5 hold that a warrant is required for a blood draw, as it is a search.
        Affirm/dissent of 3 agree that (especially in Utah with e-warrant available) a warrant is possible; and must be acquired, as the warrant timing doesn’t justify an exigent circumstance.

        I’m thinking the one justice who agrees with you isn’t the sole arbiter of the law when the other eight disagree.
        Sorry?

  8. Jerri Lynn Ward

    “As for Payne, there is the facile rationalization that he’s just a cop and thus too ignorant to be expected to know something so hard and complex as law before he exercises his power to do harm. So he got the law wrong? The Supreme Court says that happens, and it’s not a cop’s fault for being ignorant. Dumb cops. Too bad. That’s why they came up with the Reasonably Stupid Cop Rule.”

    Except he is also a licensed working paramedic who took courses regarding HIPAA and patient consent. I just confirmed that fact with the agency which regulates his license…while in the midst of filing a complaint due to his threat to use his own patients to retaliate against the hospital. Wonder how all those health care legal/ethical courses would impact the analysis regarding reasonably stupid cop rule.

    1. SHG Post author

      I suspect that given the Court’s embrace of the sufficiency of training of police officers such that they get to kill people, it wouldn’t change a damn thing.

  9. LTMG

    There are two videos available for viewing, and I watched both. While difficult to hear in the first video, it was clear that Nurse Wubbles was conferring with someone (hospital administrator?) on speaker on her cell phone. Det. Payne could clearly hear the exchange. It seems that whomever was at the other end of the phone was fully supporting Nurse Wubbles.

    There was a written policy in place agreed by both the the hospital and Det. Payne’s department of what to do in similar circumstances. Nurse Wubbles quoted from that policy. She appears to be holding that policy in her hand while remonstrating with Det. Payne who obviously does not regard this agreed policy as a standing order from his Chief of Police.

    Kudos to Nurse Wubbles for doing everything right. Hold her up as a heroine for all.

    Brickbats to Det. Payne; and to the senior hospital administrators for not moving themselves immediately to the ER to support their valiant nurse.

  10. Pingback: Liberty Links 9/2/17 | Tea Party USA

  11. Amy R. Salerno

    Your article was excellent — until you broad brushed “docs” (physicians) as always on the side of the police. I am a physician who believes in the sacredness of the physician-patient relationship and also in upholding the rule of law.

  12. GeorgeH

    Ok. I am 73 years old, have a college degree, am a Vietnam veteran, and am a caregiver for my wife who is totally disabled and needs help with everything. I don’t think I am anybody special but have seen both sides of the street. My wife has been in the hospital numerous times and I have nothing but respect for the nurses who cared for her. I also respect the police, they have a tough job and yes, they are human and make mistakes just like most of us do. Today is 9/11 and as Americans we should come together. The detective and nurse were put in a tough spot by their superiors and it will up to them and the lawyers to sort this out. We NEED cooperation between law enforcement and hospitals.

    And finally to all you nasty fuckers out there with your thoughtless, gutless comments….FUCK OFF, I’m out of here.

    1. Scott Jacobs

      I am 73 years old, have a college degree, am a Vietnam veteran, and am a caregiver for my wife who is totally disabled and needs help with everything.

      And I’m a wizard, ‘arry!

      I’d be shocked that someone with a college degree can’t grasp that there was not in any way, shape, or form that would have allowed the cop to do what he was trying to do, but I’m surrounded by college students all day, so I’m used to people being drooling morons.

      I’ll come together with cops when they stop acting like thugs, like they get to break the rules because it makes their lives easier. Until that day comes, I’m firmly in the “fuck the police” camp, and I fully intend to stay there.

      That cop didn’t make a mistake. He knew what he was doing wasn’t just wrong, but against the law. He still tried to do it anyway, though. You know why he tried to do it anyway, George?

      Because of piles of shit like you that will excuse anything police do because they are too much of a chicken shit to think for themselves and stand up for their rights.

      People like you disgust me, George. If you were on fire and I had a bottle of water I would drink the water. And then go find s’mores fixin’s…

    2. DaveL

      You know, it’s funny: You never hear anyone invoke the “We’re all human and make mistakes” trope to excuse someone for leaving a black sock in with the white laundry, or leaving the dome light on and draining their car battery, or overcooking a pot roast. It’s always for something like running over a homeless person without stopping, or raping a toddler, or unlawfully arresting a nurse for doing her job.

  13. GeorgeH

    “And I’m a wizard, ‘arry!”

    Typical of a low life….waits until somebody leaves and then shoots him in the back.

    Your remind me of a dog turd on a nice green lawn. Eventually it will dry up and get blown away by the wind.

    It’s no wonder you hate the cop and favor the poor nurse who got no help from security. She was tough and stood up to the nasty cop, but as soon as the cuffs got put on she started whining and crying like a baby.

    I only hope the law prevails. I hope the truck driver comes through ok and then says he would have consented to the blood draw by the detective.
    “Just last year, the U.S. Supreme Court favorably discussed such implied consent laws. In Birchfield v. North Dakota, the court struck down a North Dakota implied consent law – but only on the narrow ground that North Dakota had provided a criminal penalty for those who refused to consent to a blood draw. The court noted that its previous decisions had “referred approvingly to the general concept of implied-consent laws that impose civil penalties and evidentiary consequences on motorists who refuse to comply” and “nothing we say here should be read to cast doubt on them.” Utah’s implied consent law only imposes civil penalties (such as suspension of driver’s license) and thus is constitutional.”

    The blood draw is required to determine if there were any drugs involved. How does Payne know if the guy was drinking or not drinking before the accident?

    1. SHG Post author

      Oh, cool. You’re back. As a general rule, when you announce you’re leaving and then come back, you’ve conclusively proven that you’re not only a fool, but a liar. And next time use the reply button, George. You’re still not special. However, you’re comments remain moronic, wrong on every level and waste my bandwidth, so you’re done here. Even stupidity wears thin after a while.

      1. GeorgeH

        No problem. Rough language aside, thanks for the chance to express my views.

        “so you’re done here.”
        “And next time use the reply button”

        ???

          1. GeorgeH

            OK, I used the reply button. I also have some Civil ideas sans rough language which only detracts from the ideas:

            1) You opened your blog admiring nurse Wubell’s bravery and true grit. How about Payne. Before becoming a detective he was a paramedic working in emergency medicine. I’m sure it takes some bravery and true grit in that line of work and I’m sure he saved many lives. As we all know, he was still working as part time paramedic. His boss spoke very highly of him and his spotless record until Payne made a joke about only bringing transients to the Hospital. After receiving numerous phone calls from the public, they had no choice but to fire him. In fact, during the time between the incident at the Hospital and when the video came out (about a month) Payne had taken people in the Ambulance to the Hospital and there was nothing suspicious about any of the deliveries. Where’s the media reporting this?

            2) Payne’s lawyer Greg Skordas is not some kid just out of law school. Payne is well represented in this case and I will be following the investigation. I hope the Hospital’s policy is in compliance with the implied consent laws in Utah. At this point everybody is trying to save face.

            3) To all those cop haters out there, wait until someone sticks a gun in your face and says gimme your iphone. There are a few bad cops and they should be dealt with, but don’t put all cops in the same bucket. Let’s see some stories on mainstream media when a cop saves a baby from choking and not just when they shoot somebody.

            1. SHG Post author

              I apologize if I gave you the impression that I wanted to restart this discussion. I don’t. And George, it was never a good idea to tell criminal defense lawyers, prosecutors, cops and judges how it should work. Now, no more comments on this post, please.

            2. jim cline

              I’d be happy just to see the “good” cops start arresting the “bad ” cops in between saving all those babies and iphones.

            3. Billy Bob

              George, the problem is, they all look the same. It’s impossible for John Q. Public to tell a “good” cop from a “bad” one. Been there, done that. I am v. sorry and “feel” your angst-driven support of random uniformed agents law enforcement. However, those of us who have performed 10,000 unrecorded good deeds in our lifetimes deserve better than to be taken down with imprisonment and cancer over one misdeed or accident. I hope you catch my drift? And if not, well,….
              Sorry, SJ, to extend this tediious conversation. You need not post, as is your prerogative. It’s deja Voodoo all over again. How many times do we have to go over these blatantly obvious scenarios?

            4. Al Hoove

              Your #3. Dear God. How can you be so obtuse as to even trot that out?

              My mother, a staunchly conservative and highly conformist white woman– sat on a jury involving LEO misconduct back in the 1970’s. Two black men were accused of selling drugs. Evidence and testimony presented showed the cops were corrupt and had framed the black men, who were no babes in the woods, to be sure.

              During deliberations, my mother was astonished at the irrelevant basis several of the jurors used for voting the defendants guilty: “well, if your children are ever approached by drug dealers, you’ll feel differently about drug dealing.”

              It took 4 days of explaining and arguing and convincing by my mother and a gradually increasing number of other jurors to finally find the defendants not guilty, as they actually were in that case. Proof that stupidity, obtuseness and stubborn adherence to irrelevant bias are overcome only with great difficulty. May you find your way out of your own swamp of irrelevant “logic” soon.

              The trial in question was the Craig Glazer/Donald Woodbeck incident in Kansas under Kansas Attorney General Verne Miller. Feel free to google and read up on it.

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