A while back, I engaged in a couple of twits with Nicholas Grossman of Arc Digital as he was expressing his views about Trump committing treason. My purpose was to explain that “treason” wasn’t something he felt it was, but a crime, and as a crime, had elements that had to be met or it wasn’t treason. Nick, who isn’t a lawyer, responded that he didn’t mean treason in the legal sense, but in the “colloquial” sense, the one without any elements or mens rea. The one that just feels kind of treason-ish.
There’s a “colloquial” sense of “treason”? Apparently so.
They are Russian Assets and there is a war. There's a case for detaining them militarily. Trials are a sign of good faith and patience on the part of democracy.
— Keith Olbermann (@KeithOlbermann) March 14, 2022
To be clear, biolabs are not a serious discussion. They arose as an excuse only after after Putin’s first few tries failed miserably, That the crazed right feels compelled to back Putin is beyond belief. Anything to “own” the left, even if it means desperately backing a dictator’s invasion and the deaths of thousands of civilians, men, women and children.
But as disgraceful as these apologists for Putin may be, the “normalization” of some vague notion of treason on the left, and the calls for “detaining them militarily,” or investigated and imprisoned by the DoJ as the highly-regarded legal minds of The View would have it. As Whoopi smugly notes, “they used to arrest people for doing stuff like this.” Did they Whoopi?
The point is not whether Tulsi Gabbard, or any of the others who raise biolabs as if they had anything to do with the invasion, deserves to be “given oxygen,” but that the tolerance for speech and respect for the First Amendment has fallen to such a point that network television now discusses the evisceration of Free Speech as if it’s a given, something no one would even challenge as being utterly batshit crazy. And that’s because it’s not, at least not in the minds of the people whose view of constitutional rights is that they’re fine until they involve speech that is just so obviously bad that it can’t be tolerated.
Olbermann blithely asserts, without need for further explanation, that “there’s a case for detaining [Tulsi Gabbard and Tucker Carlson] militarily.” No, there’s not. There is no case at all. None. They may be wrong. They may be disgusting. They may be unhelpful to the cause of ending the invasion of the Ukraine, and disgracefully apologetic of Putin. But they have the right to be.
We are increasingly becoming a nation of fools and stooges, dredging up the most ludicrous of arguments to “win” the empty battle of words against the other tribe, just as they do the same. Neither has much concern for constitutional rights, and principles are the first casualty of this battle between good and evil.
And what’s the response to a lawyer, reminding the unduly passionate that their vacuous noise is unadulterated legal nonsense, and their dismissal of rights protected by that “trashy” Constitution, as my pal Elie calls it, reminding the voices of tribal jingoism that there are actual laws, actual constitutional rights, actual principles about which they are clueless?
"YOU ARE WHY I HATE LAWYERS!" https://t.co/h0O30BSqYw
— Scott Greenfield (@ScottGreenfield) March 14, 2022
Then again, it’s not as if we know the deep secrets of the Illuminati.
This woman at the Trucker Convoy explained to us what covid19 REALLY means. pic.twitter.com/6XGRK1qcFr
— The Good Liars (@TheGoodLiars) March 14, 2022
What has happened to us? Have we become a nation of blithering idiots, conspiracy crazies and constitutional rights deniers? Are we doomed to a future of screaming nutjobs on the one hand and the authoritarians who desperately want to imprison them? Where are the sane and rational people saying “enough” to both flavors of crazy?
Mitt Romney, in response to Gabbard, twitted “Tulsi Gabbard is parroting false Russian propaganda. Her treasonous lies may well cost lives.” Is it “treason” to exercise the right to free speech? Can free speech survive this war? Is this why people hate lawyers?
*Tuesday Talk rules apply.
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No, it’s not ‘treason’ to use your right of free speech. (It can be stupid, and it can cost lives, though.) And hopefully we will eventually come out of this ‘armed camps’ of the Left and Right. (Remember Eisenhower, and how he supported such liberal atrocities such as Medicare and equal rights?) The problem is, we as a country haven’t faced any real threats since WW II. And no one believes that anything will ever change.
Are you saying it’s complacency or that we lack any serious issues and so manufacture fantasy problems to fight over?
I wouldn’t say we lack serious issues, while we do lack issues of the magnitude of a war for the existence of the country we still have plenty of serious ones to be dealt with. Perhaps we lack people to talk about the issues we have seriously.
The talking heads are in a perpetual stupidity contest, and it trickles down to the people who need the talking heads to tell them what to believe.
The talking heads in the “perpetual stupid contest” get to be talking heads because people choose to listen to the talking heads. No one makes them, and if they didn’t, maybe they would talk about something else.
So hows the Healey running?
Finally, an interesting comment.
To be (extremely) charitable to The View, political propaganda was included in the Foreign Agent Registration Act until 1995, which was expressly upheld in Meese v. Keene (1987). Ironically, some recent high profile FARA violations all involve people working for Ukraine, including Skadden doing a PR campaign for them.
Have you considered being slightly accurate rather than bending over backward to be “(extremely) charitable” for your team? Or do you have secret information that Gabbard and Carlson are Russian agents, required to register under FARA?
Ask yourself a question, Quinn. Do you have it in you to admit when someone on your team is full of shit, or will you do anything, no matter how ridiculous, to try to turn lemons into lemonade?
… There’s literally a wiki for free speech in wartime. Maybe educate yourself
On the one hand, we’re not at war, Jay. The war is in Ukraine. It’s pretty far away from here. There are maps that could help you find it.
On the other hand, Schenk isn’t good law anymore. You might want to use better sources than a wiki for your legal research. Your clients will no doubt appreciate it.
What’s gained by saying “educate yourself”? Not only do you come across as pointlessly aggressive, you run the risk – and when you post a snarky, insubstantial comment on a blawg, the very high risk – of Nemesis biting you in the ass when it turns out you’re dealing with better-educated people than you thought.
To be fair to Jay, this is the sort of witty retort that has become commonplace among people who tend to be more passionate than knowledgeable. It’s become a staple of people whose twits are featured in @BadLegalTakes.
Wait. Are you saying the cast of “The View” doesn’t know what it is talking about? Who knew?
jvb
The View (the happy View, that brand of bothers).
Rick Wilson.
“America once used the words ‘treason’ and ‘traitors’ only in cases of actual betrayal of our nation’s most vital secrets or interests.”
Or sometimes America wrongly convicted people of treason, like Iva Toguri D’Aquino (one of the “Tokyo Rose” women).
Since someone convicted of treason may not be a traitor, doesn’t the contrary also apply (someone not convicted may be a traitor in the lay sense, just as someone may commit murder and be a murderer and never be caught/charged/convicted – or be a thief, or rapist, etc. even if not convicted).
However, a lawyer commenting publicly wanting to be taken literally no matter their later denial, is problematic.
Are you trying your best to be incoherent or does it just come naturally to you?
Their logic of not just “treason” but of “truth” itself – not to mention which imperialist atrocities to care about – is based on their tribal identity more than what those words actually mean. (In this case not a strictly partisan tribe, but fueled as well by a neocolonial nationalism.) Despite the typically farcical invocation of “good faith,” imagine how much Olbermann’s head would explode in reactionary fury if Tulsi Gabbard were the one who gave Victoria Nuland’s answer to Marco Rubio’s question in the Senate hearing as a hostile witness, and how little he would mind if Victoria Nuland tweeted what Gabbard did. It’s purely opportunistic.
Olbermann and the rest continue to demonstrate how many of those who are popularly perceived as “progressive” and/or “liberal” (labels that are sometimes used interchangeably, sometimes not) are in fact an emerging right wing of the 21st century. Identity politics, safetyism, mob morality, hostility to free expression, and now warmongering to the point of General Turgidson in Dr. Strangelove…these people are right wing fanatics and will almost certainly be looked at as such down the road despite the mass blindness to it at the current moment.
A lot of words have completely come untethered from their actual meaning lately thanks to our political, media, and educational “elite” (lol).
Treason. Fascist. Racist. Nazi. Communist. They’re all just thrown around as empty political insults now.
Perhaps I am too cynical but it seems like we have a perfect Twitter war. There is an evil genius we can boo and good guys we can cheer. With videos, it’s a great war movie we can watch snug at home without any danger. We have higher gas prices which gives us the perfect amount of discomfort to cause outrage without real pain.
It feels more like our normal politically performed outrage than actually caring. I look at pictures of Grozny and Aleppo as omens of disaster for Ukraine.
Depending on news source, the protest against Younger’s UNT talk included punching Younger. Some segment of those calling for student punishment may be referencing more than student speech.
Ron Paul was right: “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.”
This insistence on an “official”, “correct” rule of speech is actually quite Putinesque. Countries like Russia and Turkey have become what they have through this very kind of behavior.
So, em,…Whoopi….. You are trying to make the U.S. resemble Russia…Very Curious. Anything else you’d like to tell us about yourself, or who you talk to/do ‘business’ with….?
If one is found guilty of “colloquial treason” does one only get colloquially executed?
I sense that you’re reaching that “we’re doomed” point again. A little something to cheer you up (now that Barleycorn is banned).
If everyone were a practicing Roman Catholic / Christian or Jew, none of this would be happening. You would have given up something for Lent, which started last week, things like the internet, legal blogs, snarking on social media, etc. Such a practice allows one to eliminate temptations that drag individuals into sin like Twitter and “The View”, so as to be drawn closer to God and be holier. Jews prepare their hearts for Passover much like Christians do during Lent. While Passover, unlike Lent, is a mere 8 days, Passover preparation is observed for many weeks that lead up to Passover/Pesach, practices that are rich in Hebrew Traditions and wonderful communal gatherings.
We would all do well to focus on people in our midst (family, friends, strangers) and admit our online virtual connectedness are neither. Given how discombobulated our country has become since the 1960s, perhaps now would be a good time to consider those Judeo-Christian practices that have guided generations for millennia. Purim starts tomorrow at sundown.
NB: Except I broke my Lenten sacrifice yet again today (of giving up the internet), by visiting this snarky blog because I just had to rub Scott’s tummy just once to feel alive!
/ sarc
Your statements about Tulsi make me think that your favorite news network did not show Tulsi’s tweet, nor the clip of Victoria Nuland explaining to Marco Rubio that yes, there are “biological research facilities” in Ukraine and that the US government is very concerned about the possibility that some of that “research” may fall into the hands of the Russians. If you watch the clip, you will see that Rubio was stunned by this admission. The standard procedure in this sort of case is to lie. He obviously expected her to say “Of course there are no biolabs in Ukraine!” I personally would call that a serious discussion, although I too am baffled as to why Nuland told the truth.
Tulsi actually did not state nor imply that the biolabs had anything to do with the invasion. What she said was completely uncontroversial to anyone who has even a rudimentary understanding of the facts. “There are 25+ US-funded biolabs in Ukraine which if breached would release & spread deadly pathogens to US/world. We must take action now to prevent disaster.”
Some of us get out understanding of substance from favorite news networks. Others of us do not.
If you saw her tweet, then why did you say “raise biolabs as if they had anything to do with the invasion”? That is an MSM talking point that ignores what she actually said.
You either get it or you don’t. And if you don’t, it’s because you don’t want to.
I get that the MSM hates Tulsi and consistently smears her by lying about what she says. I don’t get why you are repeating the lie.
I know you don’t. That’s been clear since your first comment.
Watching this exchange, you have your own préjudices.
I do, but not here. This post has nothing to do with what Tulsi had to say, but with Romney et al. calling her a traitor. This is obvious to everyone except those whose brains are so badly addled by their partisan delusions that the absence of extolling Tulsi’s virtue is the “lie.” You know how ridiculous those SJWs come off? Today, that’s PPGP and you. You’re no less blind than they are. You’re just the flip side of blind.
I may not be a lawyer but I understand English. This is what you said:
The point is not whether Tulsi Gabbard, or any of the others who raise biolabs as if they had anything to do with the invasion, deserves to be “given oxygen,”
This sentence clearly describes Tulsi as one of those who “raise biolabs as if they had anything to do with the invasion” which is the lie promoted by the MSM. The falsity of this statement is obvious to anyone who knows what she said.
Yes, that is indeed what I wrote. It says it in the post. It says it in Miles’ comment. It says it again in yours. I am responsible for what I write. I am not for what you read, even when you use the very strong argument “clearly.” Now, you know those guys who keep commenting long after they’ve made their point and just can’t stop? You know how they come off in the comments? Anything else you feel an irresistible impulse to say?
PGP: This comment isn’t about your ridiculous claim that the Earth is flat, rather blah blah…
SHG: What are you smoking? I didn’t say the Earth is flat.
PGP: I specifically said that my comment isn’t about that.
SHG: But why are you claiming that I said the Earth is Flat?
PGP: You’re so dumb that you can’t understand what I wrote.
Miles: You’re a poopy pants.
Did you actually read what Scott wrote or are you so stuck that you’re incapable of letting go of your narrative?
“The point is not whether Tulsi Gabbard, or any of the others who raise biolabs as if they had anything to do with the invasion, deserves to be “given oxygen,” but that the tolerance for speech and respect for the First Amendment …”
“Olbermann blithely asserts, without need for further explanation, that “there’s a case for detaining [Tulsi Gabbard and Tucker Carlson] militarily.” No, there’s not.”
What the ever-loving fuck is going through your head when you read this as being about Gabbard lying? What is wrong with you, dude? You need stop sniffing Trump’s asshole. It’s made your brain melt.
I do like Trump, for 2 reasons:
1. He saved us from Hillary
2. He is entertaining. This is the more important one, and it ties into #1. The president’s job is to entertain us. If we don’t get that, then we get nothing. Hillary may be a very nice lady, but let’s face it, she is not entertaining and she never will be.
Wait until the ladies on the view find out how old man Kennedy felt about Hitler and WW2.
You’re last paragraph’s question. Are words treason-aid and comfort? I don’t think so. COULD they be? I would hope not but, here we are. Talking heads abound saying that they are, indeed, aid and comfort. Treason! Burn the witches! Or, at a minimum, arrest them for tribunal. Chilling…
People are discussing treason when we are not actually at war with anyone